Bush wants natural gas exploration next to Philmont

[Backpacker]

Eagle in KY

 

You would make a great spokesman for the oil companies since you really seem to buy into their hogwash. You sir and Fog give such ridiculous and uninformed statements to support drilling. First of all the environmental impact would affect the area for generations, pumping gas or oil out of the ground causes stress on the geological strata that could result in slip faults, contaminate underground water tables, etc. Then there is the surface impact, that the prior poster addresses, deforestation, road building, loss of habitat etc. There is a lot more damage created than a 4 inch pipe sticking out. I work for the Park Service and I have seen the damage created in many of our parks. I suggest you and Fog take some courses in geology and forestry before you try to defend these corporations that do not have the best interest of anyone but themselves and making the maximum profit they can. But I guess if you get all your information from TV ads as your arguments

seem to bear out, what can I expect.

[scoutldr]

In all likelihood, if the NG deposits are that close, then Philmont is prime property, too. Wait until National puts 2 and 2 together. Does this mean no more popcorn??? It may be worth it! The same objections were raised over the Alaska pipeline...but recent studies have shown that the pipeline itself has had little or no effect on the wildlife.

 

A previous poster made a good point. The whole reason Philmont exists is because of Big Oil profits (Phillips Petroleum). Don't be so quick to bite the hand...

 

Personally, I think the US needs to do whatever we need to do to become energy independent, so we can tell OPEC to shove it.

[EagleInKY]

Personally, I think the US needs to do whatever we need to do to become energy independent, so we can tell OPEC to shove it.

 

Amen Scoutldr.

 

Backpacker - Sounds like you buy into all the hogwash of the DNC. No sir, I'm not a spokesman for the oil companies. I'm not a fan of the things they do. And, I'm very pro-environment. I believe we have to find a way to live off this land and live in this land at the same time. Balance is what is important. When the scales tilt too far one way or the other, we have problems. And we can't certainly point to examples of that on both sides of the issue.

[packsaddle]

I'd like to welcome the new guys to the forum. As you can see, it is fertile ground for discussion of issues like this. While Buffalo Guard is on the right track, and the conservative ethic is expressed in some (but not all) others, there are essential questions that I have not seen answered. Some of the questions are contained in the petition. Here are a few more:

What was the basis for past decisions by the Forest Service to deny the coalbed methane (CBM)development?

What is the value of the present use of this resource (the land) and how is this likely to change in the future?

How much CBM can realistically be expected from this development?

How long will it take to extract it?

What will it be worth during that time?

How much of the present value will be eliminated by that development?

What are all the costs associated with CBM production?

Assuming that it IS possible to return the land to its present state afterwards, how long will this take and how much will that cost?

 

These are some of the questions that will probably be addressed during the two years of study leading to a final decision. I suggest that those who are interested in conservation follow this issue carefully and provide comments quickly. And demand good answers.

[Fat Old Guy]

Tsk, tsk Backpacker (boy, that's wide open for a crude comment) I'm supposed to be the rude and negative one around here.

 

"I work for the Park Service"

 

Around here, the rule of thumb is that people work for the government because they can't find a real job.

 

"making the maximum profit they can"

 

Isn't that the goal of most for-profit companies?

 

"Electrical hybrid cars, methane gas,solar energy, pure grain alcohol fuel are just a few alternatives that these companies block development at every turn. "

 

Methane gas? Gee, last time that I checked that's natural gas like they want to suck out of the ground.

 

Solar energy? Don't make me laugh! You tree huggie types always cry about solar energy but ignore the fact that Connecticut (sp?) would have to be paved with solar cells to power New York City.

 

I like nuclear power but a nuke car is somewhat impractical.

[mrs red feather]

"Houston-based El Paso Corp." Well now HERE'S a surprise! Wonder who owns it?

[PNScouter]

From my perspective I think the production of natural gas is not a terrible thing. We all use it. Its not a bad thing. My own council camp is located in an oil field. When at camp, we go to sleep at night to the sounds of oil well pumps. Yes there is an impact to the ecosystem. But everything we do impacts the ecosystem.

 

Lets consider Philmont's impact to the ecosystem. Over 650000 scouts have trampled all over the hills and trails at Philmont since 1938. I am sure trying their best to practice LNT. But still there is an impact-a trampled weed, an annimal that does not like the traffic that leaves the are, an increased errosion due to heavy trail traffic. This is a sustained impact to the back country year after year after year.

 

We as a society decided that the impact of Philmont on the environment is acceptable. It is a wise use of the natural reasource. I think drilling for natural gas is a wise use of our natural resources. I also think it can be done with a minimal but acceptable impact to the environment.

 

We make these decisions every time we go to the gas pump, buy a car put food for our tables or go for a hike in a pristine wilderness.

[Backpacker]

Fog

Your ignorance of this and almost every other topic never ceases to amaze me. Methane is a gas produced from the fermentation of plants etc, and is reproduced very easily in a lab,natural gas is associated with petroleum deposits in the earth, get an education will you. I would rather be a tree hugger than an uninformed knownothing like yourself. (OGE don't censor this one). Your arguments are so absurd they don't deserve comment, they contain nothing but hot air.

[molscouter]

Without taking sides, Backpacker, natural gas is comprised primarily of methane mixed with some higher hydrocarbons (butane, propane, etc.).

[Backpacker]

Molscouter

 

Yes what you said is also true but the kind of methane fuel I was talking about was the type commonly found in agricultural production and processing. The type you refer to does occur underground but only in association with those other fuel compounds.

[Fat Old Guy]

"Methane is a gas produced from the fermentation of plants etc, and is reproduced very easily in a lab,natural gas is associated with petroleum deposits in the earth, get an education will you."

 

Sounds like you should get the education. The "natural gas" delivered to your home is almost pure methane. It doesn't start out that way but they clean it up. The stuff that they pump out of the ground has butane, propane and some other stuff in it. (I'll bet that you use a propane stove, don't you?). The "gas company" cleans up the "natural gas" and delivers clean "natural gas" to your home.

 

As for producing it in a lab, that may be true but is it cost effective? Probably not or they'd be cranking out vats of the stuff rather than drilling for it.

 

The way that you spew vitriol in my direction gives me pause. I am prompted to wonder if BackPacker is yet another psuedonym for someone who claimed to be leaving this board. Food for thought, no?

[Fuzzy Bear]

I am astonished to find that although we are not talking about putting pumpers on Philmont land that there are people here that would jump at the chance of accepting it. A few years ago I was astonished to find that people would accept a King of the United States instead of an elected President because they were tired of the bickering and didnt want any opposition. I suppose we have had it good for too long.

 

As far as supporting the gas issue because the Phillips family gave us Philmont, I would rather they take it back than to put in rigs, roads, and maintenance crews, if this is where this is all going.

 

Most supporters of the gas issue probably drive SUV's and don't think twice about burning as much energy as fast as they possibly can. Environmental awareness is a call to share the earth. We don't own the whole earth just because we live in the United States. We share the earth with others and that includes people outside the United States. I guess since the U.S. is a Super Power, then it is an acceptable idea to run all outlets at full throttle until it is all gone. At that time, we can express to the whole world that we truly are as selfish as they say we are.

 

Tree Hugger

 

[tall buffalo guard]

hey, would someone explain the reason for all these insults? personal attacks don't adress the problem and they make a serious discussion impossible. so lay off each other, will ya? if you disagree, at least do it modestly. anyway, i believe that diggin around in the ground for natural gas is a way to prolong our dependency on nonrenewables. i dont know much about natural gas (so please, backpacker? fat old guy? dont insult my lack of research), but it seems to me that it too is nonrenewable. why look into the ground when we should explore the potentials of remewable resourses such as bio fuels, wind farms, hydro-electricity and, yes, even solar power which, as tree huggin' as it may be, still beats tearing up the planets' natural wonders?

[Backpacker]

Fuzzy you are right on the mark with your observations, kudos to you.

 

FOG, If you weren't so sad and pathetic I would consider debating you further, but as it now stands you are not worth the bother. So believe your little fantasies all you want to. By the way thank you for the compliment of calling me a treehugger, there are more of us than you might think my friend. And no I am not BW.

[Fat Old Guy]

"And no I am not BW."

 

What makes you think that I'm talking about someone named "XX"?

 

Where's the moderator when someone's dissin' me? Mabye this BackBacker fellow does have a special connection with the moderators . . . maybe he is that fellow who claimed to have left. Interesting, no? (This message has been edited by a staff member.)