Homosexuals in Scouting

[OldGreyEagle]

I don't see how you lump in Floridian Electtions with Wounded Knee, Teapot Dome, Watergate or Iran Contra. Actually I don't see how some of the aforementioned items relate to each other. I think this way way way over the top.

[LovetoCamp]

Of course there's room for the children. Children aren't atheists and homosexuals. It's not until they've been exposed and recruited to these twisted lifestyles do they choose.

 

Buddy, your uncles and grandfather didn't fight to allow you or anybody else the right to burn the flag. Burning the flag is only 15 years old. A great improvement in the law indeed.

 

Bus stop time.

[johndaigler]

Hey, OGE, and everyone else. My list was meant as examples of times when our "more perfect union" struggled with itself. They were (we are) imperfect. Our systems and our chosen leaders can make mistakes and poor choices. These are times when we could argue about blame or crime or errors made. My point was these types of times will always exist. We shouldn't underplay them or ignore them, but we should celebrate the fact that as Americans we are less than satisfied at those times and work to eliminate them from our future. There are any

[OldGreyEagle]

Wait, hold on, and just a pea-pickin' minute. I am a long way from a staunch conservative as many on this forum can vouch, but I cannot let a mention of the Florida Election go by unchallenged. To my understanding, which may be faulty and I am open to challenge, all the independent organizations that did recounts of the florida presidential ballots all came up with George Bush as the winner. I am talking about private groups that recounted the ballots, not governmental entities. Yes, it was a close election but to lump it in with Wounded Knee does just such a huge misjustice to the those slaughtered that day as to make me faint.

 

I can't say I have supported George W in all his moves, but the constant harping on how he got elected is pure sour grapes. Now, as to the topic at hand, I see no reason why a homosexual citizen has a less right to die for our country as my son, although I am not sure thats on topic either.

[Rooster7]

Phillip,

 

But those of you who feel that homosexuals in Scouting hinder the program apall me. Just because someone is homosexual, does not mean they spend every waking moment flagging down people looking for sex.

 

Yes that may well be true, but how does that fact justify their perverted acts? Is there another sexual perversion that we should accept as healthy and normal, simply because its practitioners may not be ensnared by it 24/7?

 

If you are the great parents you say you are, your boys (hetero and homo) have been taught morals. Those morals will include common decency.

 

No one claimed to be a great parent. We all do the best we can, but we are also flawed beings. Be that as it may, since when does common decency mean one must accept the deviate behavior of others? I have a problem with swearing occasionally (just to name one of my sins), but I don't want others to accept my misdeeds as normal. I want a society that sees the wrongness in my swearing, and keeps me accountable.

 

I am tired of this stupid criticism.

 

Baseless criticism is stupid. However homosexuality, as sterile as that label may sound, is a lifestyle choice that degrades humanity and all those that accept it as normal. A homosexual seeks self-gratification and/or acceptance. He does not honor his partner (or more typically - his partners). His love for his mate is twisted, and the resulting physical acts are perverted.

 

I have many a gay friend, and none of them are morally impure.

 

We are all morally impure. The difference is, homosexuals want the world to accept and celebrate their impurities.

 

None of them make 24/7 sexual advances on any man in sight.

 

No ones sexual drive, normal or abnormal, consumes them 24/7. This was a meaningless defense.

 

So what are you afraid of?

 

Whether a homosexual is consumed by his lust for other men (or boys) five hours a day or five minutes a day, I will not entrust that man or boy to be in custodial care of my son and/or share a tent with him.

 

Conservatives take the honor right out of me, because I do live up to the Law I promised to strive for.

 

No one can take the honor out of you, except yourself. The question iswhat do you honor - Godly principles or Human frailties?

 

John,

 

You speak about the rugged individualists who helped form this country, but seem disinterested in allowing certain people their individuality. Now, I suppose you can argue that they can be "individual" elsewhere, but your love and respect for Scouting is obvious, so "elsewhere", to you, is obviously a "lesser" place. That seems contradictory.

 

Your reasoning can be applied to murders and rapists after all, their misdeeds make them individualists too (although rugged may be argued). Yes, I know that you will dutifully point out that homosexuals are not murderers I agree, but how does their perverted acts make them rugged individualists. If the criterion is simply a person who goes against societal norms, then they indeed share the company of murders and rapists. So lets play fair. I will concede that a homosexual is not a murderer, if you concede that a rugged individualist as described by TrailPounder, is in reference to the God fearing, principled men who founded this country and not a bunch of anarchists who embraced rebellion in all its forms.

 

Everyone here respects service and Duty to Country. And we encourage it in everyone we meet --- well, . . . almost everyone, . . . you seem to be saying some people shouldn't be welcome to serve the country, or the country's children. Again, contradictory.

 

Is he simply and arbitrarily saying, Some people? Or, is he saying, some people who act reprehensively should not be allowed to serve with others? Your statements seem to be implying that homosexuality is an inherit physical trait, such as race. Sorry, but that argument falls flat. Homosexuality is about behavior. One can chose to have sex or not to have sex. One can seek the company of a man or a woman or something else. It's about choices and what one is willing to subject himself and others to. While many thoughts and desires may run through our hearts and minds, we all have the ability to chose good. We all have the ability to deny our own wicked desires, and chose what we know is right.

 

You want your kids raised the "American Way"? Shouldn't TRUTH be a large part of that. CC, discovered America (well, it's close enough to truth that I think we can live with it and honor his efforts) but he was more than disrespectful of what and whom he found here.

 

Thats one version of history. We have the last 30 years of liberal theology in the public school system to thank for this revisionism. Educators (and the media) did not portray Christopher Columbus in such a manner prior to 1970. I realize that American Indians have suffered as a result of European exploration of the Americas, but why must we denigrate every icon of American history as evil? Why do you so willing accept this latest version of history, which portrays Christopher Columbus as selfish and bloodthirsty? I digress. It's not that I find it difficult to beleive that some of our forefathers may have performed acts of evil. It's that I am sickened by how quickly we are willing to rewrite history and portray every white European founder of this country as someone less than honorable, simply because liberals in this country have some kind of axe to grind.

 

GW deserves every kind word we can say about him, but he WAS a slave owner and imperfect in other areas of his life, as well. I don't think it made him, or Jefferson, or most of the others, "less". They struggled with these choices as real men.

 

I agree, but I see no relevance to the point being argued.

 

Is there nothing we have to offer these children??

 

These children? Are we talking about children of homosexuals? If so, to my knowledge, there is no reason such a child cannot join the BSA.

 

Or, are we talking about a child who claims to be a homosexual? Now thats interesting. Old enough to embrace the idea of having a sexual relationship with a partner of the same gender, but still young enough to be viewed as a child. In my mind, if this child is old enough to lust after other boys, then hes probably not as young and innocent as your supposition suggests. Still, we can offer him this. Your decision to seek an intimate relationship (i.e., sexual relationship) with another boy is WRONG! Sorry about being so blunt - but I doubt if anyone reading this does really know this to be true.

 

Are we so afraid of their impact on ourselves and our children that we deny their existance??

 

If we were denying their existence, then we wouldnt have a policy to address them. Were simply denying them access to our children.

 

AGAIN, I don't disagree with the policy, but if our reasoning is that they aren't good enough for us, then, again, I worry that it's OUR problem, not theirs.

 

For someone who agrees with the policy, you have a lot of self-doubt. Its not a matter of being good enough. Its a matter of morality. Some folks try to embrace morality. Others try to redefine it. The BSA wants boys and leaders who are willing to embrace traditional values not tailor them to their liking.

 

[LovetoCamp]

After high school, I enlisted and learned to dig a better hole, do a lot of KP, and learned how to make a floor and boots mirrorlike with a buffer. BUT, for my children, I want them to go to College where Rooster went!!!

 

 

[Hunt]

I can understand why many people feel strongly that they wouldn't want their own children to be in a unit with gay leaders--I kind of feel that way myself. But that's because my religion teaches me that this is an immoral lifestyle. But not all religions--not even all branches of my own religion--teach that. So why shouldn't this issue be left up to the chartering organizations of units, as other leadership issues are? As I understand it, units can ban female leaders, can require that all members belong to a particular religion, etc. What is the factor that makes this different? If your child's troop is sponsored by the local Baptist Church and forbids gay leaders, why is it a problem for you if the local Episcopal Church allows such leaders? And can you answer in a way that doesn't require others to simply accept your own religious views on the subject as correct?

[johndaigler]

Remember folks, Don'try this at home . . .

(Arguing with several of you at one time . . . great, . . . I'm blaming this all on Amie and Pounder, BTW!!!)

Ok, let me just respond person by person, so I have a small chance in keeping my brain from exploding . . .

 

 

TrailPounder, you started me up, so you first. Your "Flames in the Tent" comment was out of line. I'm disappointed that so few let you know that. Again, most homosexuals are NOT RECRUITED and even using the word "choose" minimizes homosexuality into a lifestyle habit like "clothing optional". You're disregarding many truths concerning homosexuality. If it's a matter of Faith for you, fine. I'm more than willing to leave it at that. I'm surprised your faith urges you to judge others so, but I'm certainly no expert on your beliefs and I'm sure there are other things we would disagree on.

 

FYI, Yes, CHILDREN ARE ATHEISTS. Religious faith is learned. That's why what we teach them is so important. That's why I went on about truth vs. historical legends. We may choose to teach our children to see the world in only one way. But, I believe their life experience will show them myriad other world views. If my kids can't live with others' beliefs, they're going to struggle with much of their interaction with others.

 

Your kids don't need to go to Rooster University - my kids do! Your kids need to go to some liberal arts school in an East Coast Urban Center - someplace where they'll bump into some pony-tailed gray hair!

 

BUDDY, my family fought for this country and it's 200 year old Constitution over the last 150 years. The First Ammendment has protected politically motivated personal expression for much longer than 15 years. I understand your comment, but you undervalue all the efforts that have gone into American History leading up to that Supreme Court decision. Flag burning didn't start with that decision. Unfortunately, my entire comment was a poor choice for this thread. As OGE has said, it was way over the top. In my frustration with you, it was a poisin-dart directed just for you, and as such, was beneath me. I won't take back what I said, but I do apologize for using it the way I did. That kind of disrespect was exactly why I disapproved of your posts. I'm not likely to ever be a flag burner, but I aggressively believe in others' rights to make such free speeches. I don't think you and I would want such different things for our children, but they'll very likely see the world differently.

 

 

OGE, there's no sour grapes here. I think you read more into my mentioning FLA and Wounded Knee than was there. I chose them because I see them both as times when our Govt. and/or it's Leadership didn't work very well. They are both topics that give (or ought to give) us pause, as a nation. I'm not a Gore opologist (Hey, ya want to be President, carry your Home State!), nor do I lump ballot-counting-chaos with Congressionally-honored-murderous-slaughter-of-civilians. They are obviously, issues of different caliber. They are, however, similar in the way I used them. They both belong on the list of times in our history when the American people think we could have done things better.

 

BTW, is a pea-pickin minute the same as a cotton-pickin minute??

 

 

OK, whose next . . .

 

Oh yeah, Rooster . . . hmmmmmmmmmmmm, been here before, . . .We're never going to agree, our Beliefs are what they are. You said some things to Phillip that I disagree with but that's his burden. I hope at this point, you know my intent is to disagree, not to challenge or refute your Faith. Bear with me if my disagreement with your words feels like more than just that. . .

 

 

"So lets play fair. I will concede that a homosexual is not a murderer, if you concede that a rugged individualist as described by TrailPounder, is in reference to the God fearing, principled men who founded this country and not a bunch of anarchists who embraced rebellion in all its forms."

 

Problem is homosexuality isn't a capital crime in this country, nor is it in any way akin to anarchism. (and your earlier shot about "rugged is arguable" is beneath you!) So, you need to concede the point even if I don't give you what you want. But, let me try to agree with you. Trail Pounder's "Rugged Individualist" comment denied some basic truths about our heroes. They were men, imperfect men - (If historical research points out to us that Benjamin Franklin had a homosexual affair during one of his many stints across the pond, would it make him unfit to belong to the "Founding Fathers"?? If we consider having sex with a slave to be rape (since the slave cannot say NO), would it make Jefferson less of a heroic value to this country??) - and yet, as humans, they were able to rise above that and work together to create something better than any single one of themselves. I belief we ought to strive to be as principled as the Founding Fathers. We disagree, fine. Let's work together anyway to create something better than either of us. In order to do that, we'll need to let "them" into the conversation (not the org., just the conversation) . . .

 

 

"Homosexuality is about behavior. One can chose to have sex or not to have sex." . . . Since we disagree on the very nature and definition of "Homosexuality" I don't think we can go very far with this. Just a question, though, ... Am I not a heterosexual until I have sex with a woman?

 

 

You're upset that I said "he was more than disrespectful of what and whom he found here"?? "That's one version of history??" Most American history taught in public school in America is as close to scientifically researched "truth" as will get past "book burners". The truth that is kept out of textbooks is not kept out by "liberals", but by "conservatives". You misunderstand the textbook writing, editing, manufacturing, selling, choosing process if you think American History textbooks are overly influenced by liberals. Also, I believe you overstate the "revised" history as we understand it today. I've seen plenty of public school textbooks (too many, actually!). I have never seen Columbus, Washington or any other American Hero portrayed as "evil" - not even "less than honorable, bloodthirsty, or selfish". You're tossing out "urban myth" with this line of posting. What you may see, rarely, is an attempt to recognize Heroes as humans. (With all due respect to Texans, Tennesseeans and others with close attachments to the topic . . . an example . . .) . . . Sure, our hero Davey Crockett died "heroically" at the Alamo. Sometimes, the conversations get around to: Why was he there? Why was any "American" there? Why was Santa Ana there? Were they Right to be there? Was one side right and the other wrong? In most cases, educators will respect the open endedness of such conversations. I've never seen a test question that asked a student to identify who the good guys were at the Alamo. Sure, many readers and posters have a personal answer to those questions, and I'm not interested in starting an "Alamo" thread, but the point is, we constantly learn new things about our history and these facts change the way we see historical figures. Seeing them as people is closer to Truth than seeing them as Legends.

 

 

The "relevance" to seeing GW and TJ and other American Icons as real people with qualitites that we can admire and frown upon is that if we can accept them as people who overcame their imperfection to achieve great things, then it's a step closer to accepting the differing people around us as people who are worht valueing. If we can do that, we can work together to create something better than ourselves.

 

 

"Old enough to embrace the idea of having a sexual relationship with a partner of the same gender, but still young enough to be viewed as a child. In my mind, if this child is old enough to lust after other boys, then hes probably not as young and innocent as your supposition suggests. Still, we can offer him this. Your decision to seek an intimate relationship (i.e., sexual relationship) with another boy is WRONG!" . . . I can only assume that you want this taught to all the boys under 18 who have had intimate relationships with girls, as well. Should we disallow them from our org., as well???

 

 

"If we were denying their existence, then we wouldnt have a policy to address them. Were simply denying them access to our children." . . . Ok, you don't deny their existence, but it's more than denying them access to our children. We deny them access to program. We deny them access to friendship and fellowship. We deny all their other character traits beyond those two big words "H" and "A". With either of the Scarlet letters we summarily dismiss them from the "good people" club.

 

I agree with who we are. I agree with not being able to accept them as "us". I don't agree with judging them harshly. Again, I'm sure that's a Faith block for you and me, so let's keep moving.

 

 

I don't have much self doubt at all. I know quite well who I am, but more importantly I know who I am not. I am not the Judge. I am not ready to decide who is "moral" and who is not. I used to be - but, I've learned and grown, and see myself and the world differently. I see grey between "BSA traditions", "morality", "traditional values", and all the other phrases that get tossed around so cavalierly.

The BSA was created by humans, as such it is not perfect. It grows and changes to accommadate new learning and experiences. Each human "redefines morality" for themselves - to deny that is to misunderstand what goes on in that brain of yours. So, we are an imperfect organization made up of individual morality definers. Is the line between us and those "outsiders" who define morality differently really so dark and wide that we cannot yell across it to communicate? MUST we JUDGE those who won't cross over the line as immoral, deviant and a threat to our children? I think we need to work harder to pass the judgement test, before we apply it to others so crisply.

 

Peace.

 

I need a s'more and a sumac lemonade . . .

 

jd

 

[packsaddle]

I had a thought today while I was at the range: perhaps I'd look distinguished with a ponytail...nah!

So Rooster7, you gonna inform ol' TrailPounder about how you got where you are? TrailPounder, that college is located in Greenville, SC - called Bob Jones University. You should look into it.

johndaigler, it takes a bit of reading to put tone and inflection on the words in the forum but the image in my mind's eye for TrailPounder is an early middleaged person in great shape, with short hair (probably thinning and getting a little gray around the edges), and with an impish grin (the Ed Harris look). That grain of salt helps a lot.

Rooster, on the other hand, is Burt Lancaster gazing down upon his lessers from the mountain, and about to smite a bunch of those sinners.

[LovetoCamp]

and some of us need a tug to pull the barge load of salt....

[pjzedalis]

Nice reply Rooster7.

 

I'll agree that most of my arguments are rather pointless. I mean, everyone has their beliefs and not much anyone can really do to change others except active education, etc.

 

Sure I am a young. I am naive.

Sure I am a college student. I have liberal professors.

Sure I am a liberal. But it's kinda hard not to be.

 

It's hard for me to accept that many of the people I go to school with are "sinners" or "terrible evil" people.

 

It's hard to believe that a gay friend of mine is gay.

 

It's hard to believe that my gay friend is doing a total evil, horrible, thing by loving another man.

 

It's hard to believe that my gay friend loves his lover any less than I love my significant other.

 

It's hard to believe many things in life.

 

And to be honest, most of us "liberal" teenagers do not really care anymore. Sure, you all did it. You smoked your pot, you drank your beers, you went to your wild peace fests, and you screamed for freedom.

 

It happened then, and it happens now. And maybe the truth is, once people grow up, find a career, have kids... they start to respect all those conservative ideas that their parents taught them.

 

Maybe we start to learn that morals, purity, justice, that these things are not given in this World, and that only through perserverance can this great country stay free.

 

Yet I see the same people who preach about the great injustices of the past, and the great ideals of conservatism that hold this World together... and I can't help but think that maybe one day... one day... my gay friend might be accepted.

 

And even if he isn't accepted by you. I am sure some generations after you will accept them.

 

Because it's only becoming more common, more noted, more "normal." We don't beat up the gays, we don't harass them like we did four years ago, most of us even have a bisexual or homosexual friend or two.

 

It's becoming normal.

 

And since we are all naive, liberal, and crazy... well... maybe the future is already gone.

 

But if you ask me to banish my friends, and my ideals of tolerance... well... you can have your Bible and sacred books back. I don't want to learn from you.

 

Phillip

[evmori]

Trailpounder,

The tents at the summer camp we attend are tattooed with same thing! Good point!

 

 

"But if you ask me to banish my friends, and my ideals of tolerance... well... you can have your Bible and sacred books back. I don't want to learn from you."

 

Phillip,

The Bible tells us to love the sinner but hate the sin. How you reconcile that is up to you. I will pray for understanding for you. I would hate to see anyone lose eternal life because of a misunderstanding.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[LovetoCamp]

I browsed through the Bob Jones Univ web site. It looks go to me. They stay in the dorms unless they are 23 or married. I'll bet they don't have a 30% freshman wash out rate, I'll bet they don't have drunken idiots staggering through their campus all weekend, and it sounds like a great environment for college. Liberty University also sounds like a great place for my kids. Wouldn't schools that produce The Passion Play rather than The Vagina Monologues certainly be a better environment? I think yes.

 

(Unscoutlike allegation towards a forum member)

 

I was freezing my rear off defending the Last Frontier from the Godless Communist hordes across the Bering Sea. The only thing I was ready to smoke was a T-72 with my Dragon. Boooyah!!!

 

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[LovetoCamp]

Pack, I tried to train my weiner dog to respond like the Duke's Dog Dog, in Big Jake, but she won't attack the father-in-law, justs sits there and wags her tail.

 

Wow, put the remastered Big Jake dvd in on the flat screen and turned the surround on, and I thought I was out West. Kid's loved it, cheered at the end. Way to go Duke!!!!

[Rooster7]

Phillip,

 

It's hard to believe that my gay friend loves his lover any less than I love my significant other.

 

Loves his lover I love these euphemisms. I have many male friends that I love. Love is not the issue.

 

You can couch this debate very easily, and make it appear to be a crusade that pits open-minded people of love against closed-minded people of hate, who cannot tolerate those different from themselves. If thats what you really believeif youre determined to view this discussion from that perspective, then I doubt that youll ever understand my point of view or my faith. But Im stubborn, so Im going to try to explain this from the foundation of my beliefs on up. Bear with me; this may take a few paragraphs.

 

Love Im glad you acknowledge the existence of this abstract idea. There are some folks who would argue that love is just a chemical reaction in our heads. I assume that since you acknowledge love that you are also familiar with, and accept, the concept of hate. Perhaps Im being presumptuous (no sarcasm intended), but I going to take it as givens that we both agree that love and hate are realities in and of themselves, and not simply a biological effect caused by some external stimuli. Can we agree, although not tangible, their existence is undeniable just like the PC screen that sits in front of you?

 

Now, when I was your age (college student), I gave this a lot of thought. In fact, so much thought, it led me to some scary revelations. That is to say, my philosophical daydreaming brought me to two other intangible concepts good and evil. Do you believe in good and evil? If you believe in love and hate outside of a biology or psychology class, I have to believe that you also recognize the realities of good and evil. I know from my walk in life that there were many times, especially as a child, when I truly felt the presence of good. What does that mean? This concept is a little difficult to describe just like love, but no less real. Similarly, as I grew older, there were times when I recognized and felt the presence of evil. Rather than try to recreate the intimate details of my life that led me to acknowledge these truths, examine the world around you. Ponder whether the existence (or non-existence) of good and evil has had any influence in this world. Furthermore, examine your own personal life, from your childhood up to the present. Ask yourself these questions: Was your mothers love good? Why do some men and women sacrifice their own lives for another? Was Adolph Hitler merely confused? Are child rapists simply the product of mental illness or some horrible childhood abuse? Was the Columbine massacre the result of psychological neglect (by others or self-inflicted)? I dont know if you believe in good and evil. But to me, the evidence of both is overwhelming. I stand convinced that good and evil not only plays a part in everyday life, but they are the major players in our world.

 

So if one acknowledges the realities of love and hate and/or good and evil, then the next logical question is Where do they come from? If you dismiss love and hate as mere physical emotion and with no spiritual basisIf youre convinced that good and evil are just man-created concepts (myth, fable, or whatever), then I cannot advance this discussion to the next step. My arguments will make no sense to you. If like me, you know in your heart of hearts from your life experiences that the aforementioned are spiritual realities, then we have much to discuss.

 

My exploration for truth, at about your age, led me to the God of the Bible. There is nothing that I can say, no special words from the Bible that I can share, that will convince you of its truth. Only God can bring that revelation to you. Only His Holy Spirit can convict you, show your need for a Savior, and bring you to Christ. Im not going to attempt to share the Gospel with you. I suspect that youve heard it before. What I do want to say is this My thoughts on homosexuality and a host of other issues stem from my faith, which is rooted in the Bible. Of course, there are some on this board who wait with baited breath, to attack and discredit statements like this. They are quick to share that my interpretation of the Bible is just that, one of many. They will tell you about how they have a much different interpretation and how their beliefs are much more tolerant. Or, in Merlyns case, Im sure hell tell you that youre a fool if you believe in any of it. To all of that, let me say this My understanding of Gods Wordmy convictions of its truths, are not what I would personally chose for myself. I love the idea of Heaven, but my delight for such a place is not why I believe in its existence. I hate the idea of Hell, but my fear for such a place will not allow me to purge it from my mind. I know Gods love and grace to be true, because I have enjoyed the peace that they bring on many occasions. I loathe that I am tempted by and often fall prey to sin, but alas I cannot ignore this weakness for Gods Spirit is quick to convict me. I am greatly disturbed that I have no direct control over the salvation of others, but Ive come to accept what God has put on my heart. I dont choose to point out the sin of homosexuals because its my desire to judge them, nor is it my intent to have them appear as lesser beings. I point out their sin because God calls me to do so. My faith wont allow me to sit silently while others deny Gods existence and His Will for us. Gods Word tells me that it is the responsibility of believers to make others aware of His judgment and the gift of redemption through Christ Jesus, His Son.

 

If your assessment of my faith is that I have deluded myselfthat I have fallen victim to some false God, or some other kind of deception while I wont be dissuaded in my beliefs, I can accept that as your opinion. However, I cannot accept the claim that my thoughts reflect a faith that encourages intolerance. This is a horrible distortion, which allows people to close their eyes to the reality of Gods righteousness and the true reasons for my convictions. It's an easy out...a quick way of dismissing doctrinal teaching or an interpretation of Scripture without thought or prayer.

 

In my early 20s, I came to realize that I needed God in my life in a real and tangible way. Unfortunately, it wasnt until my early 30s that I discovered what many other believers already knew. God cannot be made into our image. God is who He is Or as God said to Moses, I am. Eventually, I discarded a very powerful paradigm of God, which in its simplest form claims something like this - God loves me. No matter what. Why do we assume that God loves us no matter what? If its true that God forgives all sin, then theres no reason for alarm right? If youre a believer, read your Bible closely.

 

God forgives His children. Who are Gods children? Gods children love and believe in Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior.

 

How do we accept Christ as Savior? We accept His gift. We acknowledge before God that we are sinners, we sorrowfully repent, and we gratefully accept Jesus sacrifice on the Cross to cover our sins and make us holy before God the Father.

 

How do we accept Him as Lord? We follow His Word and pray for His Will in our lives.

 

The New Testament did not erase the Old Testament or announce a change in Gods nature. God is a constant. He is both righteousness and love. One does not negate the other. So while I sympathize with those who struggle with sin (and I am no exception), and I am aware of Gods forgiving love, I also know that we need to be on our knees, completely willing to acknowledge our sins, and seeking His forgiveness. I believe that those who refuse to recognize Gods righteousness...who are only willing to accept His love - and deny our need to be pure before a Holy God, these folks are not worshipping and bowing before the same God as I. Or rather, at the very least, they are not acknowledging the sin in their lives and/or the need for Christs sacrifice.

 

I realize that the above is not something that one can easily and casually accept as truth. One cannot simply will himself to be a believer. I prayed for many hours to come to the faith that I now posses in Christ Jesus. My prayers were not an attempt to re-enforce or disprove anything that I thought to be true. My prayers were for God to reveal himself to me. If you feel that God may be speaking to you, and you havent done so already, Id like to suggest that you pray to Him continually. Im confident that He will answer.

 

Heres the Readers Digest version: My beliefs stem from my faith in God and who I believe Him to be. They are not the product of my politics or an attempt to justify values taught to me as a child. The fact is - I am not practicing the faith of my upbringing. Furthermore, there are teachings in the Bible that I accept as truth yet cause me concern. I could alleviate those concerns by dismissing portions of Gods Word. I could distort Scripture by narrowly focusing on certain verses and ignoring others. There are a number of ways that one can choose to avoid the truth, but I see this as a fools way to gain rest. Tomorrow will come and we will eventually have to answer to God for our choices.

 

If you want to discuss this more, send me a PM. Otherwise, I will assume that you're uninterested.

 

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)