Homosexuals in Scouting

[BadenP]

Rooster

I disagree with you on one point, when you are serving in the post of Scoutmaster you are a rep of the BSA not your church, your personal denominational religious beliefs have no place in a troop function. The BSA has a broad interpretation of what reverence is and as a scout leader that is the definition you are required to follow.

 

As far as gays in scouting and in the Catholic Church there are more than you think. The pastor in my church is currently on probation for an affair with a 22yr old, since the young man was not a minor no legal action was taken. I however see this man in a whole new light, and he has lost my and many others respect. Someone made a good point about heterosexual affairs going on during scout outings, these are just as damaging if not more so. But people are people, flawed and capable of making stupid decisions that they and us have to learn to deal with.

[boleta]

What I have described happens every day. The only difference is that the homosexual boy scout does not tell his friend or anyone else. He is in your Troop and simply does not say anything. He is not acting "gay". That is, if he wants to remain a Scout. He only has to be a hypocrite. How Scoutlike.

 

At 16, he is probably terrified about the confusion he is going through. One of my best friends in high school went through this and ultimately resolved the severe confusion of his sexual orientation at the age of 22. He is a successful physician in Ohio treating AIDS patients.

 

Rooster, I do respect the depth of your faith and the way you defend it. I was greatly impressed with one of your posts in the True Religion thread where you also defended the right of other members of your Scouting unit to have another faith even though you disagreed with the faith itself.

 

 

[OldGoat]

in refference to the objection to christian beliefs not being brought into this discussion,I thought I would point out this fact you might not know. The Zoroastrian faith has historically been strongly opposed to homosexual behavior. Zarathustra's writings, the Gathas, are silent on homosexuality or bisexuality. They tend to give broad guidance on basic principles without going heavily into commandments.

The Zoroastrian law book, The Vendidad (written circa 250 to 650 CE) contains "laws against demons" which touch on homosexuality. These purity laws are still followed by some conservative Zoroastrian communities. The Vendidad states:

"The man that lies with mankind as man lies with womankind, or as woman lies with mankind, is the man that is a Daeva [demon]; this one is the man that is a worshipper of the Daevas, that is a male paramour of the Daevas"

An ancient commentary on the Vendidad states:

"Four men can be put to death by any one without an order from the Dastur [high priest]: the corpse-burner, the highwayman, the sodomite, and the criminal taken in the deed."

One principle that might influence condemnation of homosexuality is the importance of family life within the faith. Orthodox Zoroastrianism currently does not accept converts from other religions; one must have a Zoroastrian mother and father in order to be accepted into the faith. To preserve and expand the religion, homosexuals as well as celibate persons would be pitied and pressured into marriage.

 

Many Zoroastrians in the Internet and media are promoting the suppression of homosexuality within their community. Others, of a more liberal persuasion, are more accepting of homosexuality.

 

by the way I am Roman Catholic. I just feel that it is important to understand the faith of others to better understand them and foster tollerance of those who are different.In my search for understanding I have read the sacred books of many organized religions from the airport dancers to zoroastrianism and so you see wich faith does not really matter. the point is this has no point.

The BSA is what it is and if you strongly disagree with what they practice join a gay activist group or some other group.

 

[packsaddle]

Welcome to the forum, OldGoat. I like the name, by the way. I have an old backpacking t-shirt with a graphic by that title. One of my favorites.

[amie]

It is very hard for me to understand what a person's sexual orientation has to do with scouting. As a new den leader in cub scouts I recently was asking around for anyone that had been a scout back when in connection with this being the 75th anniversry of scouts to come and speak to my den. The one person that said he was what I was looking for also told me however he wouldn't be welcomed. When questioned further he said because he was gay. I still don't understand because as a heterosexual does that mean I'm exempt from taking those same liberties. Well one more time there we go judging a book by its cover.

[LovetoCamp]

Nothing personal, it's a safety issue. No Flames in Tents.

[Zahnada]

Trailpounder,

 

Was that really necessary when answering a new forum member's question?

 

amie,

 

I'll try to respond as best I can. Hopefully it won't require much more explanation because this topic has traditionally been a hot one on this forum and a lot of us would like to be done with it.

 

First and foremost, BSA is a private organization (which was verified by the Supreme Court) and as such, BSA has the right to set their own membership policies and restrictions.

 

So the real question is why have they decided that gays have no place in scouting? Here are some reasons, and anyone who can think of others are free to add them. The BSA website gives the specific reasons, but I'll try to summarize all the reasons I've heard from various members:

 

 

1. Safety- gays in scouting would represent a physical risk to our youth. This argument will occasionally draw parallels between gays and sex offenders or child molesters.

 

2. Bad example- This is a morality argument that may or may not stem from religious beliefs. Basically, it says that gays are immoral and so as leaders, to allow gays to be scouting members would be condoning their lifestyle by ommision. This argument connects to the discussions about letting unmarried, pregnant women be leaders.

 

3. Conversion- This is an argument that believes all (or most) gays to be activists. Sex really doesn't have a place in scouting. Some feel that if gays are admitted they will then either recruit others to become gay or make their sexuality an issue. This hurts the program whether it's a gay person or a straight person who brings sex into scouting.

 

4. Gays are just not scouting material- This is a bit of an add-on to "Bad Example" in that it also focuses on morality. This argument will say that gays are immoral people, and therefore they are just not who we want to have around. Look at this argument the same way you would view the anti-atheist argument. If gays are immoral than they are counter to the Scout Oath and Law and therefore cannot be scouts.

 

 

So that's what I can come up with for reasons. You don't have to agree with them, but you should understand that many people have very strong feelings about those arguments in this issue.

 

I hope this helps.

 

[packsaddle]

Welcome to the forums, amie. I see you've been 'Pounded' already. Try not to judge him harshly, he's really a cream puff but he isn't ready to admit it yet.

[pjzedalis]

I am an Eagle Scout.

 

A Scout Is

 

Trustworthy

Loyal

Helpful

Friendly

Courteous

Kind

Obedient

Cheerful

Thrifty

Brave

Clean

Reverent

 

I missed where it said "A Scout is Heterosexual" or "A Scout is a Christian."

 

I am an Eagle Scout.

 

But those of you who feel that homosexuals in Scouting hinder the program apall me. Just because someone is homosexual, does not mean they spend every waking moment flagging down people looking for sex.

 

If you are the great parents you say you are, your boys (hetero and homo) have been taught morals. Those morals will include common decency.

 

I am tired of this stupid criticism. I have many a gay friend, and none of them are morally impure. None of them make 24/7 sexual advances on any man in sight.

 

So what are you afraid of?

 

Conservatives take the honor right out of me, because I do live up to the Law I promised to strive for.

 

Phillip

[whitewater]

I believe the policy is that "avowed" homosexuals aren't allowed in Scouting. In other words, if someone is outspoken about their sexual orientation they are not allowed to join. I'm sure there have been, and will continue to be many homosexuals in Scouting that just never talked about it and it never became an issue.

 

You'll see a lot of arguments in these forums in support of this policy (and against), but my feelings on the issue are that sexuality and discussion of related topics have no place in the Troop. The parents have complete control of this topic and any leader that discusses sexuality (other than to refer it back to the parents) is out of line.

 

The problem with an "avowed" homosexual is that by just being there and the knowledge of who he is, the topic is likely put on the table. Just my opinion.

 

Another problem is that the Boy Scouts will lose a lot of support if this policy is changed. Many people feel strongly that homosexuality is morally wrong and that it is a behavior that shouldn't be encouraged or condonned.

 

I know quite a few parents (right or wrong) that would pull their kids from Scouting if their Troop got an avowed homosexual leader. Yes, I know they could just change Troops. But the real point is that there are a lot of people who still don't believe homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle.

[dan]

When I was a Den leaders a few years ago.

After the meetings I would sit and reflex on how the meeting went and what I could have done to improve the meeting. The one thing that I thought about was that I had left a little of myself with each cub, not on purpose, but when we are working with youth it happens. I hope I gave them some of my very few good qualities. I was lucky that the parents of the cubs thought I had some good qualities, and they did not mind.

This is why pack and troops need to pick leaders that can pass the good qualities onto the youth.

I am not sure that a gay person would pass the qualities on to the youth that the BSA wants. I know as a parent I am not willing to let my son find out if a homosexual would pass on the correct qualities. I know someone is going to say that if you follow the program, that you would only pass on the BSA programs. I do not believe that this is true. As a leader, teacher, mentor we do pass on our qualities to the youth.

 

[LovetoCamp]

Young Phillip,

 

I see from your posts that those gray-haired, pony-tailed college professors are taking a toll. I am a conservative, I don't like change. I believe this country was built by rugged individualists. I serve my family, God, and my community with honor every waking minute. I've served my country in both peace and wartime, with honor, and would do it again in a heartbeat.

 

I want my children raised a certain way. I want them to enjoy our American Heritage. They're going to learn that the explorer Columbus discovered America, not that he was a racist barbarian intent on genocide. That George Washington, against precarious overwhelming odds, and by almost his force of will alone, defeated the greatest army in the world at the time, and is hugely responsible for our Independence. I'm not going to teach them that he was a racist slaveholder, not deserving to have schools named after him.

 

For myself, my only fear is failing my kids, not afraid of much else, except public speaking, heights, flying, death by shark, pit bulls, home invasion, escalators, elevators, open water, deep water, spiders, and snakes.

 

I will not have any homo activists bringing their agenda into my childrens lives. Has anyone watched the shows on MTV, Real World and Road Rules? I'm ashamed of the product our country is producing. I've met so many super teenagers and young adults who've been associated with the Scouting Program and then I contrast them to a composite of the young people MTV chooses to place on their shows. Now that's appalling! I want my children to have enough moral courage, integrity, and strength of convictions, to stand up to the politically correct steamroller that has seemed to flattened you already. There's plenty of other organizations for the homo and atheists activist to do their thing, Scouting ain't one of them.

 

Hi Pack!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LovetoCamp]

Bought a new DVD. "The Cowboys" with the Duke. I read somewhere that Bruce Dern has never been treated the same after that movie. In every other movie I see him in, I only see the guy who killed The Duke. Poor guy.

[packsaddle]

Pounder, I think that was one of his two best films of all time. For me the other one was "The Shootist". Bruce always had that 'bad guy' character nailed but "The Cowboys" really iced it. Now Laura, that's a different matter, holy moley! I hoped my comment would smoke you out but really, spiders? Just remember, gray is in your future too. Be afraid, very afraid.

 

Phillip, my advice is not to fall into the trap of assigning a label ('conservative' or 'liberal') and thinking that, having done so, you have explained anything. Your instincts are good. Go with them but try to remember the substance of your argument as well. You will soon learn that labels actually just get in the way, and when used, they sometimes indicate absence of substance.

[johndaigler]

Welcome, Amie!! First-timers don't usually sit so close to the fire!!! Glad to see you're willing to stir the flames a bit!!! A Scout is "Brave" and so, too, must all "Scouters" be! Welcome!!

 

I know we've seen this campfire topic before, but I can't resist. So, with ALL RESPECT, I submit . . .

 

TrailPounder, now, you know that not everyone who disagrees with your words is a pony-tailed, MTV-lovin, aging hippy -- or misguided youth. There's plenty of room for most of the people in the world between you and those "others" you're talking about.

 

You speak about the rugged individualists who helped form this country, but seem disinterested in allowing certain people their individuality. Now, I suppose you can argue that they can be "individual" elsewhere, but your love and respect for Scouting is obvious, so "elsewhere", to you, is obviously a "lesser" place. That seems contradictory.

 

Everyone here respects service and Duty to Country. And we encourage it in everyone we meet --- well, . . . almost everyone, . . . you seem to be saying some people shouldn't be welcome to serve the country, or the country's children. Again, contradictory.

 

You want your kids raised the "American Way"? Shouldn't TRUTH be a large part of that. CC, discovered America (well, it's close enough to truth that I think we can live with it and honor his efforts) but he was more than disrespectful of what and whom he found here. GW deserves every kind word we can say about him, but he WAS a slave owner and imperfect in other areas of his life, as well. I don't think it made him, or Jefferson, or most of the others, "less". They struggled with these choices as real men. Sometimes, we honor our heroes to the point of beatification. It's not really fair == I think "Saints" have it easier. The rest of us struggle with these monumental decisions on a daily basis. GW was no Saint, and yet, he helped create the greatest nation on the planet. . . more power to him, not less.

 

Teach your children the truth -- that's the best lesson! "Look, li'l trailpounder, our republic is the best form of govt. that exists on Earth. Still we have had Teapot Dome, Wounded Knee, Watergate, Iran-Contra, Floridian Elections, etc., etc., because we're human." Being imperfect and striving to be perfect is a better truth than some false legend of perfection. Remember, the lesson of Arthur's Camelot is not that man can't create lasting perfection, but rather that for "brief shining moments" we actually achieve more than we ought. As a nation, we need to celebrate our heroes as humans, not as legends.

 

I agree with fear of sharks, pit bulls, spiders and deep water -- and throw in bats!! Do you know that 25% of the Earth's mammals are bats? That just skeeves me out -- reminds me of having one tangled in my hair a few years ago -- really, really, skeevey! Thank goodness there's less and less hair each year for those bats to get into!!!

 

Homosexuals aren't running around the country trying to sign up new recruits. It doesn't really work that way . . .

What makes you imply that all homosexuals are "activists"? Are all divorcees, all adulterers, all smokers, all drinkers? Does being a non-Christian automatically make a Scouter a pushy salesman for their chosen faith?? Does being a heterosexual make you an activist given to bigotry and obnoxious comments about people who are different than you?? Does homosexuality, or atheism, for that matter, automatically negate every other quality that a person might have? Does being "untrained" negate every word that comes out of a Scout's or Scouter's mouth?? We're all too complicated to be summed up, and summarily dismissed, by any one aspect of our character.

 

"I want my children to have enough moral courage, integrity, and strength of convictions, to stand up to the politically correct steamroller" . . . How are we (your children and all the rest of us) going to learn the moral courage and integrity you desire, if you refuse to let us face the truths of the world in which we live?? Sounds like you want us to learn how to shut out things we don't get or that don't fit with who we are. Sounds more like fear than courage. Before you know what's on the other side, it doesn't take courage to climb over a wall, OR to choose to stay on this side of it. Wouldn't you agree that courage comes into play after you learn about the scary thing on the other side of the wall?

 

I'll agree with you that Scouting doesn't have room for homosexuals and atheists. But, please, don't wrap yourself in the American Flag as part of your argument. It might be MY American Flag, and my brother, father, grandfather, etc. all fought for my right to burn it. I'd hate to see you get hurt.

 

Again, Scouting doesn't have room for homosexuals and atheists, but I don't see how condemning those groups as "immoral" or "less American" validates BSA's choice. A fairer truth might be that we don't know how to invite them in without making ourselves less. Is this their issue, or ours? If we could think of a way to "keep our values" and let them join the campfire, do you think BSA would keep them out? If we could understand each other enough to talk about the practical impact of allowing either group to participate, would we really choose to continue segregating whole groups of youth? And, if we would, WHY?

 

Is there nothing we have to offer these children?? Are we so afraid of their impact on ourselves and our children that we deny their existance?? AGAIN, I don't disagree with the policy, but if our reasoning is that they aren't good enough for us, then, again, I worry that it's OUR problem, not theirs.

 

Just to throw another log or two on the fire . . . Amie, ya best move a wee bit back -- there's likely to be sparks.

 

 

jd