Homosexuals in Scouting

[evmori]

Actually, Fat Old Guy makes a good point~

[Eagledad]

>>As for boys in tents, if that were really the concern the policy would not be limited to those who are "openly" gay.

[Fat Old Guy]

"Do you really think that if gays become allowed in the BSA, there wouldn't be a change in G2SS?"

 

Would all outing require at least one heterosexual leader?

 

"Activist knew that if they could take out as many religious based restrictions against homosexuality as possible, eventually they would cast enough doubt on the religious belief against homosexuality that it would be viewed as extreme."

 

That's already happening. The Episcopalians are approving, endorsing, and promoting homosexuality so obviously the bible is meaningless to that group.

 

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

Eagledad says:

 

Do you really think that if gays become allowed in the BSA, there wouldn't be a change in G2SS? Some adults believe older scouts shouldn't be allowed in the same tent with younger scouts and many folks view homosexuality as form of mental disorder. Parents will insist a change to protect their sons. And why would this be any different than separating girls from boys like we do in Venturing?

 

I don't have time to write a whole long response to this, or to the rest of Eagledad's post, which I strongly disagree with. I will just say that I think that this whole focus on "sleeping arrangements" misses the point of the policy. Can anyone find an official statement by the BSA (as opposed to just the opinions of Scouters in this or other forums) that gays are excluded as a means of Youth Protection? Or to protect Scouts from sexual predators (adults or other youth), or anything to that effect? If so, please post it, but I don't think you can, because as far as I know such a statement does not exist. All of the BSA's statements regarding homosexuality deal with the "values" issue, which is of course debatable in and of itself (and, I believe, incorrect), and not with any supposed danger to youth posed by gay people.

 

Nevertheless, I do agree that some parents would perceive a danger to their sons if openly gay leaders (and Scouts) were permitted. (And by the way, when you say "if gays become allowed," the fact is gays are allowed, in practice, as long as they keep it a secret.) Although it is not a big topic of discussion in my troop, there are certain parents I know, who, I suspect, would be extremely uncomfortable to learn that an openly gay person had become a leader -- not necessarily for reasons of morality, but for the safety of their sons. (And this assumes our CO would permit this, about which I can't even guess; I am not even sure what our CO's governing body is, or who is on it.)

 

That is one of the reasons I favor local option. If the CO decides that openly gay leaders are to be allowed, the parents who are uncomfortable with that can go to another unit or seek to form a new unit at a different CO. The disruption that might be caused by this would be regrettable, but I think it would be preferable to the current situation. And anyone who reads this forum knows that parents and Scouts think and talk about switching units and/or forming new units, all the time -- for some people, every waking moment, it seems. And the reasons are not necessarily limited to dissatisfaction with troop leadership. In my own real-life, I have heard people talk about choosing a troop for their graduating Webelos, or sometimes about switching troops, for such varied reasons as the night the troop meets, the number of fund-raisers the troop has during the year, the requirement of parental participation (or lack of such a requirement), the troop's attitude toward female leaders, whether the troop has an attendance requirement, the degree to which a troop seems organized or disorganized, flexible or inflexible, the troop's attitude toward young men with special needs and a host of other things. My oldest daughter's Girl Scout troop was broken up because of school redistricting, and it is my understanding that the same redistricting brought my son's former Cub Scout pack into existence (though he himself was not in existence at the time.)

 

In other words, stuff happens. Throwing one more issue into this already complicated mix is no big deal.

[boleta]

You guys continue to amaze me.

First, the bible has nothing to do with duty to God, reverence and the BSA. This organization includes Buddhism, Hinduism and Zoroastrianism. So if we are going to have a discussion about these topics and try to keep it relevant to BSA, stop bringing your own version of Christian morality into it.

 

Second, this has nothing to do with sexual behavior- heterosexual, homosexual or other. That is clearly forbidden in any form. I daresay there are many more heterosexual scouters committing adultery in this organization than any homosexuals misbehaving.

 

Finally, Sexual behavior can be suppressed completely and should be. The kid that discovers masturbation will be in just as much trouble if he acts on it on a scouting event as any of the other proposed problems in this thread. It's also much more likely to be the "morally straight" problem that you would have to deal with.

 

It was even mentioned in one of the handbooks in the distant past.

[scoutingagain]

It is amazing that this topic keeps comming up and the same arguments are presented over and over again.

 

But I can't help myself either...

 

For those that feel their sons are safer in an organization that does not allow "avowed homosexual" adults as members, I believe that none of the adult to child/juvenile sexual abuse cases that occurred in the Catholic Church system were committed by "avowed homosexuals". To my knowledge, Catholics believe homosexuality to be immoral and do not allow "avowed" homosexuals to be members of the clergy. A position similar to the BSA's on it's adult membership requirements.

 

The membership policies do not protect kids or adults. The G2SS does.

 

SA

 

 

 

 

[scoutldr]

I'm not a Catholic, nor do I play one on TV, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express once.

 

My understanding of the Catholic theology is that "practicing" homosexuality is a sin, but if one confesses, repents and takes a vow of celibacy, you are welcomed into the Priesthood.

 

Again, it's the behavior, not the orientation.

[OldGreyEagle]

Actually I am a Catholic, and a survivor of molestation/sexual abuse by a Catholic priest. I don't condsider myself having been molested and abused by a homosexual who happened to be a priest, I consider myself having been molested and abused by a pedophiliac who happended to be a priest.

 

Had I or my parents subscribed in 1967 to the current G2SS rules, then none of those "experiences" I carry would have occurred.

[Eagledad]

 

Happy Scouting All

 

OK, there lots of fun stuff to comment on, but I pick boleta first because he seemed off track.

 

>>You guys continue to amaze me.

First, the bible has nothing to do with duty to God, reverence and the BSA. This organization includes Buddhism, Hinduism and Zoroastrianism.>. So if we are going to have a discussion about these topics and try to keep it relevant to BSA, stop bringing your own version of Christian morality into it.

[Fat Old Guy]

"Had I or my parents subscribed in 1967 to the current G2SS rules, then none of those "experiences" I carry would have occurred."

 

Who do you trust in our current world? If your neighbor said, "Hey, I have an extra (insert local NFL team here) ticket. Do you think that Young Spiked Eagle (YSE) would like to go to with me?" Do you say, "Not unless there's another adult in the car." What if that other adult is the accomplice of the neighbor?

 

What if your uncle says, "I'm going to Hollywood on a business trip. I have a big expense allowance and I'd like to take YSE with me so he can play in the Pacific." Would you trust him?

 

Have you told YSE that if he's walking home in the rain (do kids still walk in the rain?) and Father MacNamara pulls up and offers a ride that he should run screaming into the night?

 

 

[boleta]

This is a discussion of a Scouting issue. Not a bible issue or a Christianity issue. Rooster keeps bringing his Christian morality into the discusseion which is why I suggested we keep in mind that BSA does not care how we do duty to God or show reverence, just that we do.

 

If you think there are not different versions of Christian morality, just put an Evangelical, Greek Orthodox, and Koptic Christian in the same room together and enjoy the conversation.

 

Finally, consider an 11 year old boy who joins Boy Scouts and is a great Scout. He discovers at age 16 that he is gay and decides to be honest with his best friend who is not and tells him about it. He never acts on his homosexuality and is otherwise a model scout. His friend violates the confidence and everyone finds out. Throw him out? According to the intolerant folks in this thread- yes. I see no reason this should be the course of action unless he acts upon his sexual orientation which is the only thing not acceptable here.

[scoutingagain]

Scoutldr, you are correct. It is the behavior, not the orientation that I believe the Catholic Church believes to be immoral.

 

OGE, I feel bad about your experiences and do not mean any disprespect to you or other Catholics.

 

FOG, while we don't live in a perfect world, I believe the principles outlined in the G2SS, and the training provided to leaders and youth dramatically minimize the potential for abuse and if applied outside of scouting, whether at church, sports, or in the neighborhood would go far to help protect children from sexual predators. In scouting I believe the typical approach to a case of confirmed abuse would be to be summarily removed from membership and reported to the legal authorities. Contrast this approach to what went on in the Catholic Church.

 

SA

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[scoutldr]

The Priest of the Catholic church in my neighborhood will have nothing to do with Scouting. Won't even let me use a classroom for adult training. New Priest came in...same policy.

 

Meanwhile, the Catholic church 2 miles away actually charters a Pack and Troop. The Priest is an Eagle Scout and sits on Eagle Boards for candidates from their troop.

 

Why the difference in policy, especially in the same diocese whose Bishop is Scout-friendly?(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[Rooster7]

I was trying to refrain from comment, but since Boleta went to the trouble of mentioning me by name I feel compelled to rejoin.

 

So I ask Boleta, how tolerant are you of other peoples religious convictions, beliefs, and practices? On the one hand, you tout and uplift the BSA 12th point of the Law. Yet, judging by your last response, it seems to me you have little patience for people who demonstrate their faith. Perhaps you are of the thinking that religious faith is great, so long as one keeps it in a box, sealed, and restrained from public view. If so, Im sorry you are of that opinion, but allow me to broaden your horizon with this little revelation. Many folks believe that their faith is a part of who they are regardless of place or circumstance. Their spiritual life is a part of their everyday life no matter where they find themselves, whether that is in a church, the grocery store, or a forum for Scouting. Try to be a little more consistent in your open-mindedness. Otherwise, youre not really being open-minded at all are you?

 

Rooster keeps bringing his Christian morality into the discussion which is why I suggested we keep in mind that BSA does not care how we do duty to God or show reverence, just that we do.

 

So why cant you show this same courtesy to me without insinuating that I should keep my morality to myself? My faith requires me to speak my mind on moral issues and to evoke the name of my God. If yours doesnt then great, youve done your duty but dont criticize others that have different convictions.

 

Finally, consider an 11 year old boy who joins Boy Scouts and is a great Scout.

 

So farso good.

 

He discovers at age 16 that he is gay and decides to be honest with his best friend who is not and tells him about it.

 

Hmmm. Now how does a 16 year old boy, or any male for that matter, come to the conclusion that he is gay? Could it be that this boy is becoming sexually aroused by some of his male friends? What causes a boy to think he is gay? It cant be a simply matter of affection since many boys have strong friendships. And besides, homosexuality is not a matter of love, but one of sexual attraction. I submit, this boys revelation is a huge red flag. And those who fail to see it - are simply not dealing with reality.

 

He never acts on his homosexuality and is otherwise a model scout.

 

Now, how do you know this to be true? How can you prove that a boy has not, or will not, act on his sexuality? This is a huge presumption. This is a benefit of doubt, which I cannot even afford my own son in regard his heterosexuality. I want to believe that he doesnt act on his urges, but I cannot state it as fact. I know, it will take a tremendous amount of restraint on his part, to not act. Are we to presume that homosexual boys have better control over their sexual urges then heterosexual boys? NOT likely especially so for a boy whos willing to ignore natures design and embrace deviate sexual urges, which society has scorn for the ages.

 

 

His friend violates the confidence and everyone finds out.

 

Who was violated? The boy who looked at his male peers with sexual lust, or the boy who took his responsibility to others seriously and shared that information with an adult leader.

 

Throw him out?

 

It seems likely to me. But then again, this is a hypothetical and we can create the facts that would make that action seemingly wrongor right. It depends on the facts.

 

According to the intolerant folks in this thread- yes.

 

So, apparently you agree Boleta. ;-)

 

I see no reason this should be the course of action unless he acts upon his sexual orientation, which is the only thing not acceptable here.

 

Hmmm. Thats an interesting philosophy for upbringing and protecting the children under your care. It does help explain why teenaged pregnancy is so high though. And by the way, youre wrong. A boy doesnt have to act on his orientation to be booted from the BSA. Fortunately, the BSA is a little wiser than the average hip, lets be friends, liberal parent.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Eagledad]

>>He never acts on his homosexuality and is otherwise a model scout. His friend violates the confidence and everyone finds out. Throw him out?