Homosexuals in Scouting

[Hunt]

Again, some folks seem to have trouble distinguishing pedophilia from homosexuality. I see no reason to think that any particular gay man is more likely to molest my son than to think that any particular heterosexual man is likely to molest my daughter. I suppose if you would never allow your daughter to go anywhere with two heterosexual men, no matter how trustworthy they otherwise might seem to be, there is some logic to not allowing your son to go with two gay men. That would at least ascribe the same level of distrust to everyone's sexual urges.

 

But Rooster seems to be saying that if a person believes that sex with another person of the same gender isn't wrong, that he's more likely to also think that sex with children isn't wrong. I don't buy that. One sin in your life--even an important one--doesn't equate to depravity in every area of your life. If that were the case nobody could ever be trusted with anything.

[BSA_Bugler]

johndaigler: You said: "Bugler, I'll get back to you after Thanksgiving. I have to go home to my Mom's house to get my old High School Latin books so that I can figure out what you said to me!!!!!!!!!" Enjoy your visit at your Mom's here is the translation.

johndaigler: "God and I will both survive the judgement, either way.

" Facilis descensus Averno!- "The descent to hell is easy."

So, Be of careful of: Praesumptio salutis sine meritis consequendae-"Presumption of God's mercy.", Impugnatio agnitae veritatis-"Impugning the known truth.", Obstinatio in peccatis-"Obstinacy in sin.", Impaenitentia finalis-"Final impenitence.", and lastly: Peccatum Sodomitarum-"The sin of Sodom"!

You said; "Fiat justitia; ruat coelum." -"Let justice be done, though the heavens should fall."

No jd! Caeli enarrant gloriam Dei! - "the heavens bespeak the glory of God"

So.....Fiat justitia et pereat mundus. "Let justice be done, though the world perish"

I find your Latin challenging and I enjoy it! I wish I was fluent. It's not Sacrilegious, after all it "is" "The Language of God" and "The Official Language of The Vatican", RESPECTIVELY!

Dominus vobiscum-"The Lord be with you",

+Jim

[NJCubScouter]

Hunt says:

 

Again, some folks seem to have trouble distinguishing pedophilia from homosexuality.

 

I'd say that's the understatement of the year. But I guess it's not too surprising. If you call gay people "homos" as TrailPounder does, I guess one can't expect you to make fine distinctions between the groups of people that you don't like. (I think the last time I heard someone use the term "homo," other than in this forum, was when I was in the seventh grade.) I am sure the BSA is very proud to have that kind of rhetoric used to support its policies.

 

(The preceding sentence was sarcasm. Actually the BSA has, in its literature, disclaimed any connection between homosexuality and sexual abuse of children. I say "has" because there used to be a sentence in the Youth Protection Guidelines stating that homosexuals are no more likely to be abusers than anyone else. That sentence has mysteriously vanished. I suspect the reason is not that the BSA doesn't believe it anymore, but just that they don't want to say it anymore.)

[LovetoCamp]

Homosexuals are obviously drawn to the Priesthood. It was mentioned by a lawyer for one of the diocese in trouble that upward to 50% of the priests are homosexuals. My take on this is, that the vow of chastity has been spun around to read that the vow only applies to the opposite sex, and that homosexual relations do not violate the vow.

 

There are 5000 cases of sexual abuse by priests against minors. All of these preists involved can't be classified as pedophiles, can they? No. The preists who were involved with prepubescent children, yes. That was the smallest percentage. They should be hung by the neck until dead. So the remainder, thousands, are practicing adult homosexuals preying on teenaged boys to fill their vile needs. You want vile. That's vile.

 

I equate a similarity between the influence, control, and charge that preist has as a Scout Leader has over our Scouts ages 6-21. You feel-good college debate team types can yell and scream at me all you want, but It's not going to take a lead weight to fall on my head to see a connection here.

 

I'm not willing to take the risk.

 

[Rooster7]

Hunt,

 

Both are sexual sins. While I view homosexuality as a sin and a perversity within its own right, I also see it as a slippery slope to other sins of a sexual nature. Not unlike the idea that those who engage in smoking pot are more prone to escalate their abuse to more powerful drugs. In the realm of sexual sin - men engaged in homosexuality have already proven that they are willing to cast aside social norms and risk the potential wrath of society (whatever form that may take), so long as they can pursue another man to gratify their sexual needs. Their pursuit of happiness (or rather sexual gratification) is very insular and selfish. So consumed by it, nothing else matters as much religious faith, their family, the acceptance of their community, everything else is secondary and a candidate for disposal, if need be. Given what I know of homosexuality or any other sexual wantonness for that matter, I would not say its safe to assume that their yearnings will always be subdued to one group and/or a particular behavior. Placing your son in the hands of a homosexual is not unlike trusting a gratuitous womanizer with your 16-year-old daughter. His preference may be for adults, but given his propensity his myopic quest to seek gratification unabashedly and without regard to social norms and/or judgment from others - its not wise to assume that he has disciplined himself to practice restraint when it comes to sexual temptation.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[planoscout]

So, let me get this right. Your sexual orientation is an incredibly huge deciding factor in how 'moral' you are. Could someone show me any evidence, outside the Bible, Koran, or any other religous text, that proves that homosexuals are more likely to commit acts of molestation and/or other acts of crime? I beleive that homosexuals are just like you and me, only they happen to be attracted to members of the same sex. Now I, being a heterosexual male, have several female friends. Does the fact that I am sexually attracted to females mean I am going to sexually abuse them? No, of course not, and the same goes for gay people.

Aside from the moral argument, this whole fiasco does make it appear that BSA is an intolerant group, and that image is going to hurt us. Already some United Way chapters have pulled funding, and I guarntee it will get worse as homosexuals become more mainstream nad gain more rights. Although America is the land of the free, and the first modern democracy, we have always been behind Europe in the way of equality (ex. Womens Suffarage, Slavery).

[packsaddle]

Just a fine point. The better analogy might be: the homosexual male is to the teenage boy as the gay woman is to the teenage girl. A "gratuitous womanizer" has the gender thing all wrong. And I'm not sure how well 'gratuitous' works here either. 'Shameless' or 'avowed' might work a little better, but still not the best analogy. Nevertheless, I tend to agree with Hunt and NJ on all this (but everyone knew that already).

Also (and this is for you 'Pounder) I state this sincerely, I trust our gay female friends completely with my daughter. They are caring and loving and I have no hesitation to let her spend time alone with them. Rather,it is a few sleazy young heterosexual men around here to whom I would feed a few .45 Cor-bons if I could do it legally (up close and personal, if possible).

FYI, I use the term 'homo' quite often - applied as the genus, Homo (as in Homo sapiens). Sorry, I just can't help it. I seek absolution.

[LovetoCamp]

You mean we're behind the Europe that slaughtered 30 Million of it's citizens a mere 60 years ago, and we're behind them somehow? Please Sir. I lived in Europe for four years, and we certainly are not behind Europe in much of anything. They are living at least 10 years behind the USA. I would also venture a guess as to who brought slavery to our country, could it have been Europeans? We don't need to go to Europe to find an example.

 

If I was the United Way, I'd tread very cautiously on who and why I cut off funding. That could come back and bite them very hard.

 

The priest scandal is not only a warning, but shows what the result would be. That ain't mainstream.

 

Hey Pack, just found a dvd four pack, The Searchers, Rio Bravo, The Cowboys, and Stagecoach. I think I'm gonna drop the hammer and buy one of those 50 inch hdtv's for the wife for Christmas. If we were neighbors, and you cut off the ponytail, took out the earrings, and didn't wear the beret, you could come over and have popcorn and watch The Duke with us.

 

 

[packsaddle]

Aaawwww maaaan, the beret too?

[OldGreyEagle]

Oh man, no matter where I turn, all this disrespect for berets, I don't know where it comes from

[NJCubScouter]

FYI, I use the term 'homo' quite often - applied as the genus, Homo (as in Homo sapiens). Sorry, I just can't help it. I seek absolution.

 

Everybody's a comedian.

[Hunt]

I just want to say that I appreciate Rooster's last comment--it's logical, although I don't fully agree with it. The idea he puts forward is that sexual sin is a slippery slope that is likely to lead to more serious sexual sin.

I think one problem with this is that we have a strong image of homosexuals in this society as sexually promiscuous--and many of them are. But I would argue that it's more the promiscuity that one should worry about rather than the sexual orientation. Thus, I would feel safer sending my son with two gay men who were in long-term committed relationships with men of roughly their own age, than I would in sending my daughter with two heterosexual men that I knew to be sexually promiscuous, especially if they dated a lot of younger women.

(Just as an aside, most of us expose our children to much higher risks of injury or death by letting them ride in cars driven by people we don't know all that well, than the risk they would be sexually molested in a two-deep Scouting situation.)

[LovetoCamp]

http://washingtontimes.com/national/20041115-124042-2061r.htm

 

Trail Pounder and the BSA are correct.

[NJCubScouter]

TP, I don't see how the BSA could be "correct" about a statement it has never made. Can you show me one statement from an official BSA source saying that the exclusion of gays is based on a connection between homosexuality and sexual abuse of children? I doubt it.

[johndaigler]

TPs source article doesn't make the connection he wishes it would. The article says that homosexuality is a morale (that's not a typo) issue for RC clergy, and a continuing organizational disfunction. There's NO connection between the Church's pedophilia crisis and this article. There's certainly no connection to be made on behalf of BSA.

 

jd