Homosexuals in Scouting

[Trevorum]

So, does membership in a gay organization in and of itself constitute "avowed" homosexual behavior? Of course not.

 

In college, I joined the Black Students Union but no one thought for a second that I was black. At one time, I was also a member of NOW, but that didn't mean I was a female.

[evmori]

Maybe being a member of a homosexual organization doesn't constitute being a homosexual. But being an atheist doesn't meet the membership requirements to be a member of the BSA.

 

"Our youth will judge us by our actions."

 

Then if I am a member of the BSA (which I am) and a Scout tells me he is an atheist and I let him advance through the ranks of Scouting, what type of example am I setting for him? Not the kind that is trustworthy. Safe maybe, but not trustworthy. And being trustworthy is more important than being safe.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Trevorum]

"Maybe being a member of a homosexual organization doesn't constitute being a homosexual."

 

Wow! We have won a major victory here men! If I read this right, Ed has admitted that it is OK for adult scout leaders to be members of a homosexual organization!

 

(ducks quickly)

[evmori]

A Scout or Scout leader can be a member if whatever organization they want! Now if a Scout or Scout leader becomes an avowed homosexual or an atheist because of their membership in these organizations then that conflicts with the membership requirements of the BSA & the BSA has every right to terminate their membership in the BSA.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

If BSA really wanted to exclude all homosexuals from membership, there are several things it could do:

1. It could make it clear on its registration forms that homosexuals are not eligible for membership. Currently, it doesn't do this--nor does it state anywhere that homosexuals are not eligible for membership (only "avowed" ones).

2. It could require membership applicants to check a box affirming that they are not homosexuals. It could even require all members to do this every year in case they "turn."

3. It could investigate suspicions and accusations of unavowed homosexualily and remove people from membership if credible evidence of gayness is found.

The first two steps would eliminate people who currently say nothing but would not lie to stay in. The third step would go after those who would lie.

Why doesn't BSA take any of these steps? The best face to put on it is that BSA doesn't care about your private sin, but only in the actions and values that you model to the Scouts. The worst face is that BSA wants to give lip service to its anti-homosexual values, but is not willing to take the difficult steps involved in purging its membership.

Note: I don't favor BSA doing any of this--I rather think the issue should be left up to COs, many of which are in a much better position to determine the scope of what is and isn't sexual sin than BSA is. (Study question: would BSA expel a male leader who is openly living with a woman to whom he is not married? If not, why not?)

[packsaddle]

Hunt, a 'local option' policy would be far preferable in my mind. Still, it would leave the likelihood that 'local option' would be quite variable across all units with some perhaps going far beyond the muddled approach that exists now, even to adoption of your third suggestion. In that case fear would take a prominent place in our interactions. I might be afraid of behaviors that fit a gay stereotype. Gossip and innuendo would become important. It would be like...living in a small Southern town.

[Strawberry Switchblade]

"Study question: would BSA expel a male leader who is openly living with a woman to whom he is not married? If not, why not?"

 

Funny you should ask.

 

The troop I used to work with has had that problem twice. the first case happened before I started my work with the BSA. The current is a mess. The leader of this troop has commited adultery and moved in with his new love interest, who is also married. (she is seperated from her husband) The Greater Pittsburgh council has asked him to leave, but he has refused. He's still a scoutmaster, but membership in the troop has had a nosedive, many scout moving to other troops with better track records.

[Hunt]

As I understand it, a CO could, even now, take stronger steps to keep out even "unavowed" homosexual leaders (I don't know about scouts, though). Every adult leader application has to be signed by the COR--and I don't know of anything that would prevent the COR from demanding that applicants state that they are not homosexuals. The CO owns the unit, and can set membership standards (apparently with some exceptions, such as racial discrimination). As has been mentioned many times, a CO can refuse to allow female leaders, or leaders of religions other than the CO's religion.

 

It's interesting to hear that a council is trying to oust a SM who is living in an adulterous relationship. I guess the CO doesn't object, since it could terminate him immediately. I wonder if the result would be the same if the man and the woman were not married to others? I suspect the Council wouldn't get involved, although some COs would act.

[gregtlaw]

I have been searching for a forum such as this for a long time, gentlemen, and am glad I finally have the opportunity to express my opinion to a larger audience.

 

I was a scout growing up and naturally was excited to have my eight-year old son join the cub scouts last year. At the time, it was announced during the opening meeting that there was a huge shortage of den leaders and volunteers were desperately needed. Being an active father in my children's extracurricular activities, I readily volunteered.

 

I am gay. However, I am about as "unavowed" as a man gets. I am straight-acting, out only to close friends and family, and am married (though as a matter of covenience) to a wonderful woman. We raise our children (all from previous marriages) as mother and father and very few are privy to the knowledge of my sexuality.

 

My ex-wife decided to divulge the information of my sexuality to the scout master and I was told, on no uncertain terms, that it "is not a matter of don't ask, don't tell" and I would not be allowed to apply for the position. Funny, I could serve my country in the Army Reserves as a medic being a gay man, but couldn't actively participate in my son's scouting experience.

 

Needless to say, my son is no longer a member of the scouts and my two nephews have been pulled out as well once I disclosed this story to my (straight) brother. Neither of us want our children involved in a biggoted organization regardless if the discrimination is against ethnicity, religion, race, gender or sexual orientation. Our children have been brought up with tolerance for other's differences, which obviously is not a value of your organization.

 

Times have changed, gentlemen. A gay man is no longer a "fag", much less a child-molester. Perhaps it's time you reevaluate your values.

[packsaddle]

gregtlaw, welcome to the forums, even if ever so briefly. I both respect your decision regarding your son and I sympathize with what you say and feel. I agree with what you say. If you search around these forums you will see that quite a few others also tend to agree. I know this provides little consolation but as I have told my other gay friends, one day we will prevail. In the meantime we have to keep plugging away. Best wishes.

[johndaigler]

gregtlaw, WELCOME!

 

You're painting with too wide a brush, Greg. I don't know if you read all 17 pages of this thread (or the other threads on similar topics) or if you're just relating your personal experience. I won't argue with your feelings, or defend the way you were treated.

 

But, there's so much more to this topic. Not all Scouters are strongly in favor of the present policy and some actively work to alter that policy. Not all Scouters who agree with the policy are gay-bashing neo-Nazis. (I, personally, have never read the word "fag" in these forums.) Not all Scouters are men, let alone gentlemen! Not all Scouters can be summed up by their feelings on this topic. Can all gay men be lumped into a single group and defined by their homosexuality?

 

There are plenty of Scouters who would welcome you into their lives as a person, friend, relative or neighbor and yet not be ready to welcome you into their Scouting program. That might be hard to understand, it might be unfair, it might be just plain wrong -- but it's not simple.

 

If you just vent your spleen at a perceived mistreatment, how is that different than what you accuse the BSA of doing? People believe what they believe for a variety of reasons and based on their unique life experiences. In either case, whether forum members agree with you or not, you're preaching to choirs. Perhaps, instead of preaching, you'll stay a while and chat - ask a little, answer a little; teach a little, learn a little.

 

There's certainly a place for your sons and nephews in Scouting. (Sex, sexual orientation, etc., are never really topics for Scouts - especially Cubs. You certainly won't see heterosexual Scouters discussing their life-choices with Scouts.) Is there a place for you? As a parent? - Certainly. As a leader? - I don't speak for the BSA, but I would bet other units would have different responses.

 

I wish you well - and your son and nephews. I hope you find your way into Scouting - ther's always a shortage of involved parents. If not, there are other quality youth programs available - Indian Guides, etc.

 

Take care,

 

jd

 

[evmori]

Well, I'm not gonna be all warm & fuzzy.

 

Hiding & deception are great character traits for a Scouter. We need more of them! Oh yeah, trustworthy, too.

 

We should be thanking the ex-wife for cluing the unit in on the type of individual that was applying to be a Scout leader.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[johndaigler]

By "warm and fuzzy" you apparently mean Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, and Cheerful.

 

Perhaps, he's learned that he can't be both Trustworthy to himself, and to all others. Homosexuals aren't the first group of people who have learned to lie to outsiders in order to protect themselves and their children.

 

Here's a parent trying to do a good thing for his son. We won't let him do it with us, so he opts out. But, we still feel the need to insult him on the way??

 

Seems petty to me.

 

jd

[Prairie_Scouter]

Hi Greg,

 

And welcome to the forums.

 

Without rehashing all of what appears in this thread, all I can say is that not everyone in Scouting agrees with the policies on gays, and we hope that, with time, the BSA will see fit to alter its policy.

 

I commend you for your actions.

 

It's unfortunate that you were "outed" by your ex-wife to the BSA. Kind of gives you the same "warm and fuzzy" feeling people must have had about the McCarthy Hearings. As our future Chief Justice has said in his hearings, people to have an inherent right to privacy; it's unfortunate that yours was violated and that BSA implicitely agreed with it by accepting the information.

[LovetoCamp]

Why would you have a problem with the McCarthy hearings? Our fathers, uncles, and grandfathers were squared off against the Russians in the Fulda Gap. We fought Red China in Korea. We fought communists in Vietnam. Cuba. Nicaragua.

 

McCarthy rooted out card carrying members of both communist organizations and the communist party from government and television.

 

If you belonged to organizations that were hell-bent on the destruction of our country and our way of life, you should be nervous.