BSA and lessons

[dan]

Last year at the Philmont dining hall if someone wanted to have seconds, they had to sing for it. If the BSAs largest most exclusive camp does this, it HAS be OK for troops to have scouts sing for lost items, using the kybo, for being dirty or whatever.

Scouts where told no sing no seconds.

[silver-shark]

All boys singing together, or individually (as in singled out)?

[OldGreyEagle]

Interesting concept, I could see an argument both ways. If the scouts and scouters get a full meal initially and seconds are a luxury, then singing for them could be viewed as not hazing, just paying a price for more than what everyone else got.

 

Singing for lost property is having to do something to get your own property back, that which is rightfully your own. I think there is a difference, well in my mind there is. One thing for sure lots of gray area in whats hazing and what isnt, I am reminded of the Supreme Court decision on Pornography, ( I think it was them, I could be wrong) they couldnt define it, but as one justice said, "I know it when I see it"

 

When it comes to Hazing, I know it when I see it, then again, maybe what I know is Hazing is just good clean fun to another. What I do like about the Hazing discussion is almost all have qualified their statements with somethig along the lines of "... as long as it doesnt get out of hand.."

 

Now, we need to decide what out of hand means, WOW fodder for plenty more

[Big_Dog]

Actually,

 

There are a few scouts I would give seconds, thirds.... to not sing!

 

Just kiddin'

 

bd

[OldGreyEagle]

And I would be one, bigDog

[NJCubScouter]

My son is shy, but he eats a lot, so it would be a close call whether he would sing or not. On the other hand he is not "of age" for Philmont yet.

 

I think whether it is "hazing" depends a lot on how the boys are asked or told to sing. If it is done in a lighthearted manner for the purpose of building Scout spirit and not as a "punishment," I suppose it might be ok. If the adults and staff have to sing also, it is probably ok. (Ok rules-wise, not music-wise. I can sometimes do pretty well singing, but as my family could tell you, I can do pretty poorly too.)

 

OGE, you are correct about "I know it when I see it," actually it was one justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, Potter Stewart, writing a separate opinion concurring with the majority in a 1964 pornography case. In a one-paragraph opinion, he started off by explaining that in order for the government to criminally punish someone for distributing pornography, it must be "hard-core pornography," and he then concluded as follows:

 

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that."

[acco40]

"of age for Philmont"

 

Philmont has programs for all ages and all genders. True, when some talk of Philmont they are really referencing "a Philmont trek" which does have age (and weight) limits.

 

Yes Scouts should feel safe but they also need to know that the "big world" out there has all kinds of people in it.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[NJCubScouter]

"of age for Philmont"

 

Philmont has programs for all ages and all genders. True, when some talk of Philmont they are really referencing "a Philmont trek" which does have age (and weight) limits.

 

Yes, Acco, you are right. I meant a Philmont trek. I guess that is what I do think of when I hear "Philmont," however incomplete my initial reaction might be. When I hear people talk about "going to Philmont" that is almost always what they mean. (Which again reminds me, I am pretty sure Sunday is the 30th anniversary of the date I left for MY Philmont trek.)

 

[Eamonn]

I am with OGE on this hazing thing.

As I read this I couldn't help but think of Opera Man from Saturday Night Live and what he might sing?

Some stuff is just fun and is a vital part of what we do. Sure there are groups of kids that would think nothing about singing "Food Glorious Food" in order to secure an extra helping of Jello. Done right this can be a lot of fun.

Asking a Lad to sing as an act of penance is not fun for the Lad. Is asking him to sing as bad as other activities that an evil minded SPL or misguided Scoutmaster could inflict upon him? No, I feel sure that there are some really big nitwits out there.

Many years back in the troop we went through a thing about nick-names. I got stuck with Big A, there was at the time a little Lad Amin he got stuck with Little A. There was also a real big Lad who got Podge. Podge loved his name and to this day still signs himself Podge when he writes to me. Sad to say there was a very small Lad who got Titch, he didn't like it, so we went back to calling him Jim (His name was James.) At no time was there ever any intent to hurt anyone or cause them any harm. If they said stop please don't do that, we stopped.

Eamonn.

[Laurie]

I see two issues here. One is singing for extras. There was no expectation of receiving second helpings, but it might be a fair expectation to receive the first helping. When anyone in our family attends camp, we know what is and isn't included in the cost and we are asked to clearly label all items with full name and troop number. We regularly pay for 3 meals per day per trip; we label all items. Therefore it seems a fair and reasonable expectation to receive those meals without singing for them or to be able to retreive misplaced items without a big production. As for singing for extras, well that sounds like it could be a lot of fun for everyone. Though I don't clearly understand this whole issue of hazing, I do see two issues presented in the original post: one being that I paid for/own something and one that I have an opportunity for more of something.

[packsaddle]

Who chooses the song?

[Eamonn]

Any song that the "Black Eyed Peas" have recorded would seem to suit. Unless they wanted dessert then it would have to be something the Bananarama had done.

Of course if those wanting seconds were adults they could sing "Come And Get It."(Either the Badfinger or Beatles version.)

Eamonn.