Thanks, Alpha Phi Omega for NOT discriminating!

[Eamonn]

Deloe,

I thought when you posted" There are also 11 year old homosexuals, neither is a choice." That you were implying that people are born homosexual.

Now I'm really confused. If someone isn't born that way and it isn't a choice. What is it? Of course I'm at a disadvantage not being gay. But does a person wake up one day and decide that he or she is attracted to members of the same sex?

Maybe I'm having a bad night but why would I looking for the word corroborate?

While in the eyes of some a homosexual would have a hard time living by the Scout Oath. The BSA policy as I read it says that: Boy Scouts of America believes that a known or avowed homosexual is not an appropriate role model of the Scout Oath and Law for adolescent boys.

So my answer to your question about the celibate homosexual is that if he or she didn't make it known, he or she could be a member. Maybe welcomed is taking it a bit far.But as far as I know no one will ever ask.

Eamonn

[Zahnada]

Eamonn,

 

Just so all sides of this argument can be honest with each other, I would like to say that there is no firm proof that homosexuality is either an innate trait or a chosen one. I know scientists have offered "proof" that it is one or the other, and while I don't think it's necessary to cite every example, needless to say nothing has been conclusive.

 

But I would like to answer some of your questions. A person may not come out of the womb, or be born, as a homosexual. But they won't come out as a heterosexual either. I think this was the point Deloe was making. A newborn baby has no concept of sex or sexuality. One argument for why there isn't a higher proportion of 11 year old gays is that sexuality isn't fully developed at that age either. The boy is just beginning puberty.

 

Now, is homosexuality a choice? For some people, yes it is. I feel strongly that there are many gays who have chosen that lifestyle to gain either acceptance or significance. Some people want to be a member of a marginalized group or perhaps they want some drama in their life.

 

However, I have known several gay men who have struggled with their sexuality their entire lives. They hid their impulses throughout high school and college. They desperately wanted to be "normal" and to not have to live through the prejudice that every gay person encounters. If there was some magic switch that they could flip to become straight, they would most certainly use it without hestitation. My personal acquaintance with these individuals make me believe that homosexuality is not always a choice. For many people, the choice would be the straight and normal life, but that life goes against something internal.

[Eamonn]

Zahanda,

OK,so no one is born straight or gay. Some people choose to be gay or choose that lifestyle.Some people that are gay / homosexual aren't happy being that way while others struggle against something internal.

How did I do?

I as a heterosexual male choose my partner, we got married and have remained faithful to each other. I know both males and females who have met someone got married and have not managed to remain faithful. As a society we view these people as being in the wrong. Did these people make a choice? Or are they struggling with some internal turmoil?

Maybe I'm a victim of a Irish Catholic upbringing and maybe I'm too old to change. But in my book this comes down to morals.

I don't think that I anti-gay or anti- homosexual. I have met, worked with and know people who live the gay lifestyle and as in every walk of life some of these people are really nice and some aren't. If my son came home and said "Dad I'm gay." Would I love him any less? Of course not. I would think that he had made a bad choice.

I have seen a list of historic people who were supposed to be homosexual. The list has many great soldiers,scholars and statesmen many of those on the list are people that I admire. However when it comes to this part of their lives I think they were wrong.

Eamonn

[Herms]

Very well put Eamonn.

[Zahnada]

Eamonn,

 

Excellent points. I would never want to change your views on morality and I'm very glad to see that you have logically worked through your moral stances. I guess the real issue isn't what we consider moral, but whose definition of morality should the BSA use when creating membership policies? (this is more of a rhetorical question since I believe the forum has tried to answer it several times already. No sense in another 10 page thread that goes nowhere).

 

-yis

[Deloe]

Bob White:

Perhaps you should check out what this site has to say about "celibate": http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=celibate

"The existence or absence of sexual activity is irrelevant for membership in the BSA."

Huh? Surely if someone engages in homosexual activity, that would result in expulsion. And if this is really about "morality", not about bigotry, surely they would kick out fornicators as well. I mean, on what basis would they not allow an avowed homosexual, but allow an avowed fornicator?

"The condition is that if you are an avowed atheist or homosexual you cannot hold membership in the BSA."

Well, no one can choose whether or not to be a homosexual. So the only thing a homosexual has control over is whether he admits it. So the BSA position is that dishonest homosexual are okay, but an honest homosexual just isn't an "appropriate role model"?

 

Eamonn:

Did you wake up one day and decide you were attracted to members of the opposite sex? It's something that happens gradually.

As for "corroborate": you said "never seen any medical evidence that collaborates this." The word "corroborates" makes more sense than "collaborate" in that sentence.

 

Zahnada:

The idea of looking for scientific evidence as to whether homosexuality is a choice, to me, is like looking for scientific evidence that squares can have five sides. Its logically impossible. If someone chooses to have sex with people of the same sex, they must want to do so. And if they want to have sex with members of the same sex, they must already be homosexual. There may be, very rarely, people who choose to CLAIM that they are homosexual, but homosexual means having sex with members of the same sex because one wants to, not for acceptance or significance, or any other reason. If I offered you a million dollars to have sex with a member of your sex, and you accepted, would that make you a homosexual?

Also, the question of whether it is innate or a choice is not a completely valid dichotomy. It may be that homosexuality is due to environmental effects, but that doesnt mean its a choice. After all, influenza isnt innate, but it isnt a choice either. So even if you show that homosexuality isn't innate, that doesn't mean it's a choice.

[Zahnada]

"The idea of looking for scientific evidence as to whether homosexuality is a choice, to me, is like looking for scientific evidence that squares can have five sides. Its logically impossible."

 

You need to look at all sides of the argument first. There are some who believe being gay is a choice and others believe it isn't a choice. My point was that there has been no firm proof to back up either side.

 

"If someone chooses to have sex with people of the same sex, they must want to do so. And if they want to have sex with members of the same sex, they must already be homosexual. There may be, very rarely, people who choose to CLAIM that they are homosexual, but homosexual means having sex with members of the same sex because one wants to, not for acceptance or significance, or any other reason. If I offered you a million dollars to have sex with a member of your sex, and you accepted, would that make you a homosexual?"

 

Ok, I'll buy this, but we're just getting into a battle of definitions now. You are right. A person who claims and acts like a homosexual without really wanting to is not technically a homosexual. But there are many people who I feel pretend to be gay to either fit in with a certain group or to gain attention. Am I claiming that these people constitute the majority or even a large percentage of gays? No. But they are there. I think part of the ambiguousness of sexuality comes from bisexuality (What are your thoughts on this?). And I have one hypothetical for you that I've asked people before: If there's a man who is attracted to other men, but he never follows these impulses, is he gay? Or does one actually have to have sex to be able to claim their sexuality?

 

"Also, the question of whether it is innate or a choice is not a completely valid dichotomy. It may be that homosexuality is due to environmental effects, but that doesnt mean its a choice. After all, influenza isnt innate, but it isnt a choice either. So even if you show that homosexuality isn't innate, that doesn't mean it's a choice."

 

Innate is not the word I meant to use. Instead let me say "inside of the person." So, nature/nurture, it's still a desire that's inside, therefore the desire itself is not a choice.