Thanks, Alpha Phi Omega for NOT discriminating!

[Deloe]

While I dont endorse everything that Merlyn has said, and certainly not how he said it, his basic point is sound. Bob White, you made a claim which Merlyn disputed. Instead of attempting a substantial rebuttal, you defended your claim on the basis that you dont know for certain that it is false. I mean, come on. THATS your defense? Your claim MIGHT be true? On that basis, I would be completely justified in calling you a murderer. I mean, I dont know for sure that you arent. When you say that the BSA does not take public money, the natural interpretation is I know that the BSA does not take public money, not I dont know that the BSA does not take public money, but I dont know they do, so Im going to keep on claiming that they dont until its been proven to my satisfaction otherwise. You can split hairs all you want as to whether this was, technically, lying, but the fact is that you made a statement which gave a false impression. If you wish to express you doubt as to the BSAs receipt of public funds, the honest way would be to say I dont think the BSA receives public money, not to declare as a certainty that they dont. You cant even present a valid reason to doubt Merlyns claim, just your own doubt.

 

You should take a long, hard look at what you craftsmen have wrought. You feel free to say anything you want as long you dont know for certain its false. You refer to opposing points of views as a hissy fit, and the holders of those views jackasses. When someone responds to a claim YOU made, in response to the originator of the thread, you accuse of him of hijacking the thread. Meanwhile, FOG implies that all atheists are liars, along with many other incredibly rude responses. These are the values you learn in the Scouts?

 

[Zahnada]

In defense of Bob White (who thought I would ever say that?), I would like to make a few semantic statements. Although I haven't spoken to anyone from Old Baldy Council or any of the judges or lawyers involved I therefore do not know anything about this case to be "true", but I'll take all of Merlyn's posts at face value and believe him. So if Old Baldy did take government money, then Bob White made a claim that was untrue. It was a mistake, an error, a misinformed statement. But a lie? To me, a lie is intentional. A lie is when you honestly know the truth, but choose to say something different.

 

So if he said something not true, then why try to corner him by labeling him as a liar? Such an attack would make any poster here defensive. And it's totally outside the point of any arguments being made here. Notice how these threads really get derailed by stuff like this. Let it be noted that I don't condone Bob White's final reply with the "Merlyn said, 'liar liar'" comment. I felt that was just as immature as Merlyn's accusations of his lying.

 

As for Deloe's closing comment of, "Meanwhile, FOG implies that all atheists are liars, along with many other incredibly rude responses. These are the values you learn in the Scouts?"

 

I couldn't agree more. Can anyone else feel a growing intolerance in the issues and politics section? Is it possible to debate these issues civilly? I would hate for people to form their impressions of scouting from the postings in this section.

 

One final message to Deloe and Merlyn: I'm not quite sure what either of your intentions are on this forum, but I encourage you to look outside the "Issues and Politics" section more often. Go into Open Discussion and you will see a group of boys and men who truly care about a program and the impact it has on youth. I know you don't agree with several aspects of this organization, but I hope you realize that there are some really good people in this forum. These are people who want to make a difference in the lives of boys and they have nothing but good will.

[Fat Old Guy]

"Meanwhile, FOG implies that all atheists are liars"

 

When you walk around proclaiming untruths, what else could you be?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Zahnada, the reason I called Bob White a liar is because I've pointed out the Old Baldy grant to Bob before (back in 2003), so he KNOWS that the Old Baldy council got that government grant, yet when someone mentions the BSA "feeding at the public trough", Bob White again flatly states that the BSA gets no public money!

 

See the old thread "ACLU sues Old Baldy council for fraudulent HUD grant"

[LovetoCamp]

How many 11 year old atheists do you know? Exactly. There aren't any.

 

How many 11 year old homosexuals do you know? Exactly. There aren't any.

 

It's not until these few, who have percieved themselves to have been dealt a crummy hand, reach adulthood do they choose their reprobate lifestyles.

 

Pouring money into the Scouting movement should actually be a priority of the government, not an bone of contention in the courts due to the dissatisfied with life of several Godless atheists. What an incredible way for our country to positively influence its future citizenry and leadership.

[Twocubdad]

I have two problems with this program that no one has touched upon. I've haven't (and probably won't) take the time to read the entire report, but from what I've read here it seems to me that the Scouters involved crossed the line of honesty in accepting this grant. They're using the grant money to make presentations to boys about joining Scouts. The presentations are being made to everyone without regard to race, creed, color, national origin or sex. If you are gay or athiest you can't actually join, but (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) because since the grant only covers recruitment, not actual Scouting, it isn't covered by the grant.

 

I'm I the only one who thinks this is a little smarmy? Agree or disagree with the membership policies, but at least have the guts (trustworthy and brave anyone?) to live with the consequence of those policies. Scouts should be more concerned with maintaining their integrity rather that just bellying up to the federal trough with the rest of the hogs.

 

And secondly, with all the conservatives out there no on is botherd by the feds dolling out this money in the first place? Please don't tell me everyone is doing it and that if the scouts don't take it someone else will. (Please re-read the above line regarding hogs.)

[Laurie]

(This message has been edited by Laurie)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Trail Pounder, I was an atheist at age 11. The BSA kicked out the Randall twins in California when they were 12 for not believing in god. For some reason, you think EVERY 11-year-old believes in gods? It's impossible for any 11-year-old to NOT believe in gods? That's absurd.

 

And I'm not surprised that you advocate govenment funding of discrimination against atheists, given your attitude. Fortunately, the courts are much better at treating atheists as equal citizens than you.

[Herms]

Merlyn,

 

Such anger!?

[NJCubScouter]

TwoCubDad, 2 thumbs up, 5 stars, or whatever other rating system you choose, for that post. Oh, and gigadittos (as opposed to megadittos, something I wouldn't "rush" to say.)

[Deloe]

Trail Pounder, I've got some news for you: EVERYONE is born an atheist! It's the natural state of humanity. There are also 11 year old homosexuals, and neither is a choice.

[Herms]

Deloe,

 

You got both points backwards, both are choices.

[Eamonn]

Deloe

Please correct me if I'm wrong. From your posting I think that you are saying that some people are born homosexual. I have heard this said but have never seen any medical evidence that collaborates this.If you know where I could find out more I would appreciate it.

Even if as you say people are born homosexual, I think that living a gay lifestyle is a choice.I might be wrong but as far as I know the BSA has said that it doesn't allow avowed homosexuals to be members. So this being the case wouldn't you agree that there is a choice? I have been is Scouting for a long time and no one has ever asked me if I'm gay or not. As it happens I'm not gay but I don't make a point of telling the world that I'm heterosexual(Until now).Again I hope that you would agree that there is a choice. As far as I know no one is asking homosexuals to declare their sexuality.

Eamonn(This message has been edited by Eamonn)

[Deloe]

Herms, I can't understand how anyone can say either is a choice. We can only choose our actions. We cannot choose our beliefs, or our desires. You might as well claim that being short is a choice.

 

Eamonn:

I'm not sure what you mean by "born homosexual". Do you mean "come out the womb sexually atracted to the same sex"? Then no. Do you mean "inherently different from heterosexuals"? I think that is self-evident. Have you ever been tempted to be homosexual? Homosexuals have. So unless you have, that's a difference between you and them. I don't understand how anyone can think homosexuality is a choice. Is heterosexuality a choice?

PS: I believe the word you're looking for is "corroborates".

 

As for "gay lifestyle", is that all the Scouts object to? If a celibate homosexual wanted to be involved in scouting, would he be welcomed?

[Bob White]

If a celibate homosexual wanted to be involved in scouting, would he be welcomed?

 

Scouting does not care if a person has ever been married or not.

 

Perhaps you meant chaste? The existence or absence of sexual activity is irrelevant for membership in the BSA.

 

The condition is that if you are an avowed atheist or homosexual you cannot hold membership in the BSA.