The noble, the brave, and the sickening

[Adrianvs]

I find it amusing how liberals suddenly have a great respect for the anti-homosexuality taboo in Arab culture. It's not surprising, however, given that they routinely defend the degradation of women, deliberate murder of innocents, schooling of children for violent crime, and totalitarianism as part of some valid "cultural heritage."

 

The following article provides some good commentary on the issue of prisoner abuse and Arab outrage:

 

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13239(This message has been edited by Adrianvs)

[Achilleez]

Rooster7,

 

I would have hoped that I would have slightly more credibility than for you to mistake that I was classifying the entire US army for the actions of a few perverted individuals. However, I do take offense to how you described the actions:

 

" BUT, when some American soldiers who are risking their lives (and have probably seen a few friends die at the hands of insurgents) take their frustrations out on some captured enemy combatants"

 

It really does sound like you are trying to defend the actions of these people. Stripping people naked and torturing them by making them stand on buckets for hours or be shot is not my idea of how people should 'take out frustration'.

 

 

[gsmom]

Well, it looks like this discussion has degenerated into name-calling. I think the moderator was correct in deciding that Issues and Politics discussions should relate to scouting. I will avoid these discussions from now on.

[NJCubScouter]

Adrian, which "liberals" believe all of that?

 

What I find amusing is the constant refrain from you, Rooster and maybe a few others, that "liberals believe this," and "liberals believe that," with no evidence that "liberals" actually believe any of it. Maybe a few people believe it, but in my book, if someone "routinely defend(s) the degradation of women, deliberate murder of innocents, schooling of children for violent crime, and totalitarianism as part of some valid "cultural heritage," in ANY country, they aren't a "liberal" at all. At least not a liberal in the way that I am. I think that what you do is decide what beliefs you oppose, and slap the label "liberal" on it. Rooster has done the same things many times, including a post in the past day or so, I'm not sure whether it is in this thread or another one. It's easy to "win" an argument when you are making up what the other side believes.

[OldGreyEagle]

Achilleez

I understand what you are saying, I think, but perhaps as a non-U. S. Citizen you can help me out. It as during this past week, I beleive, that HAMAS blew up a pregnant woman and her 4 young daughters. No word on when the HAMAS will be holding world wide televised hearings on who did that. Then again, maybe blowing up pregnant women doesnt get the same play that abusing prisoners does. About a month back, the train bombings in Spain killed and injured thousands. I don't recall any Islamic cleric or leader of an Islamic country apologizing for the misdeeds of the mis-guided few.

 

What was done in the prisons was wrong, but when the same and worse was done by Saddam, where was the international outrage then ?

 

The killing and mutilation of the 4 contractors, no outrage there? What will some one have to do to an American before the world is outraged... for US?

 

I guess the internaitional community is right, we are just bad bullies with no thought except our own self serving interests. Time to cut off the foreign aid, sack the Peace Corp. Maybe we will just become isolationist. if there is an earthquake, devastating fire, tornado, well we are much to evil to help, world, you are on your own

 

 

 

[Rooster7]

Achilleez,

 

I did not see anything in the papers about people being shot. Nor did I read how long they made a specific person stand on a bucket, or what he was told, or if there was more than one person subjected to this. Where do you get your information? Or do you merely assume the worst when it comes to Americans?

 

gsmom,

 

If there's been name calling - I think you started it when you said, "I am ashamed to be an American." Since I'm an American too, I take offense.

 

NJ,

 

If you want to know what liberals believe, take a look at their elected leaders and read a newspaper. It's not that difficult.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Zahnada]

Well, I'd like to answer some of the things that OGE and Rooster have said.

 

First I would like to say that the United States Military is a representative from our government and our country. Each of us has personally paid to send those men and women there and we all knew we were paying for them. I'm not saying that what happened is our fault, but I understand how it can look very bad for our country as a whole. So to compare the US Military to terrorist groups like Hamas really has some flaws. The US Military should and is held to a higher level of expectations than the terrorist group Hamas. I personally take offense to people making arguments by saying, "Well, what we did was bad, but Saddam and Hamas have done worse." We're not in the same ballpark.

 

It all comes down to "Setting the Example." The US has placed itself on a pedestal for the entire world. We're the example. "This is how a democracy should be. This is what freedom is!" And it is very out of character for our country to engage in such abuse. That's why there's all this backlash and that's why people have blown it out of porportion. They are shocked that Americans can be a member of something like this.

 

Let me use a high school example. In your schools, you all knew of that one kid who used drugs. He always seemed high, he dressed the part, he acted the part, and his life was leading him down that path. But what if you one day saw the Student Body President, Valedictorian, Eagle Scout using drugs? Wasn't he held to a different level of expectations? Isn't it more of a shock?

 

 

 

[Adrianvs]

NJ,

 

You are right. It is difficult to generalize what ALL liberals believe. But since you self-apply the term, please inform me of what it means. You must hold that liberals believe some set of ideas or you would not use the term yourself. What do "liberals" believe? You don't seem to mind generalizing about liberals in positive terms.. Is it really the generalizations that you take issue with? Do you have any generalizations about "conservatives?" If not, then you have no conception of what the word means. All words are labels. Deal.

[dsteele]

I think abusing prisoners is a terrible thing. Interrogations, as KS said, are uncomfortable if they are to be effective.

 

I agree that the behavior of the soldiers I read about in the paper is deplorable and should be punished, but not as far as firing Rumsfeld. It's not like there's an edict with his signature on it authorizing the torture of Iraqi prisoners. As far as them seeing each other naked, I understand cultural differences, but it's no big deal to any soldier who's had to share a shower room. Heck, it was mortifying when I was an 11 year old Boy Scout and had to take a shower at summer camp, but we got over it.

 

This isn't a conservative vs. liberal issue, it's war. There will be errors and atrocities on both sides. I think the best we can hope for is to have very little of each on our side and get rid of thsoe who do commit the crimes.

 

I also think these recent posts have been a little rough on GSMom. I am very proud to be an American who hope it was simply using too strong of a term on her part, but remember she's living in a country where SHE's probably being blamed by the common guy on the street for something she had no control over.

 

[Eamonn]

As a person who puts my socks on one at a time, I find the photos coming out of Iraq shocking.

I find them shocking not because some of the guards are English or American, not because I'm English and not because in the eyes of many that I'm some sort of pinko left wing liberal.

There is a lot of things in the newspapers and on the TV that shocks me. Pictures of beaten and abused children, stories of people starving and the list goes on.

I suppose that in my shock that I want to appoint blame and point the finger. The parents beat a child and the finger gets pointed at Child Services, the people are starving and the oil companies are exploiting the third world. We or at least I'm getting good at pointing the finger.

As yet I haven't read all the details of how or why things got so out of hand in these Iraq jails.I do know that we the people of both England and America find nothing brave or noble in the actions of what I think were a few.

George W. is not one of my favorite people but the last time I looked he was/is a right wing Republican. Tony Blair is OK in my book but the last time I looked he was the leader of the left wing Labour Party. What has happened has nothing to do with left or right wing politics. It is the actions of a few.

I wasn't there, I have no idea if these few acted out of hate, frustration or too many pints of beer. Sure it happened on someones watch, sure the supervision of those who acted this way needs to be looked at.

Still the very fact that we are shocked says a lot.

Eamonn

 

 

[Achilleez]

Rooster7,

 

I apologize, for I re-read the article that was in the Kitchner-Waterloo Record and found that the word 'shot' was never acutally used. It simply said that they were 'forced' to stand naked with a bag over their head. That might mean they were threatened with a gun, or it might not.

As for your shot about assuming the worst from Americans, I have to say that you really are misguided when it comes to international relations, at least from up here. Canadians do not hate America. Some of us disagree with your policies and the things you do ('you' meaning the United States government), but as you yourself have said, we are free to disagree with whatever we like. Infact, while over 70% of Canadians consider America our closest friend, only about 30% of Americans feel the same way (according to the National on CBC)

 

OGE,

 

I'm right in Zhanada's boat. While killing pregnant women and abusing prisoners are both very wrong, they are not comparable in this instance considering that one comes from a known terrorist group while the other comes from the great Savior nation that is supposed to be 'liberating' Iraq. I think the message of 'these men do not represent the USA' will likely be lost on the average Arab citizen.

[Rooster7]

Of course - the debacle itself has nothing to do with politics. I don't think any one group is lining to say, "We liked what these guys did to these prisoners." My point was, and is - Liberals are exploiting this horrible story to bash Bush and to gain leverage in an election year. And that fact, does not surprise me one bit - although I do find it be about as low as one can stoop.

[Zahnada]

Rooster,

 

I agree with you completely. Political groups have grabbed this story and exploited it as a means to attack President Bush. I will be very upset if Rumsfeld is either fired or forced to retire over these incidents (my objection to blame being place on him is based on current known information). The soldiers responsible should be punished accordingly. Provisions need to be made for these acts to never be repeated. However, I do not feel that any of this was caused by the Republican Party and the events should not be exploited as such.

 

With that said, I must now make apparent my pessimism regarding politicians. If these same events occured with a Democratic president in office, I feel the Republican Party would also make similar attacks in attempts to discredit. this is the nature of our partisan system. I feel the Democratic Party has taken a moral low road by using these events to benefit themselves. But I do not feel the Republican Party would be above such actions either.

 

What is it about politics that makes everyone lose at times?

[OldGreyEagle]

You guys are missing the point, Of course the US is better than those that I mentioned. And when we have a mess we clean it up, we televise it and proclaim it to the world. That was the point. Will Rumsfield getting dressed down in front of Congress get the same play the pictures of abuse do in the Arab world?

[Eamonn]

As for Liberals using this horrible story to bash Bush.

Wasn't Bush the Leader that led us into Iraq to get rid of the weapons of mass destruction ?

When there were no weapons to be found wasn't it Bush who pointed the finger at Saddam and the torture going on in the jails of Iraq?

Eamonn