The noble, the brave, and the sickening

[LovetoCamp]

Rooster,

 

(This message has been edited by Trail Pounder)

[firstpusk]

Rooster, the comments about self-esteem appended to your recent apology were a bit mean-spirited. May I suggest that if you are going to make an apology, make it genuine or just skip it all together. He was right to call you on the earlier remark. You should have been man enough to recognize your error and offer a heartfelt apology.

[Zahnada]

Well, my opinion has changed. Apparently there are thousands of pictures of various kinds of prisoner abuse. I would be inclined to blame the prison guards if these were just a few polaroids or a roll of film. But thousands of abuse pictures? If 7 people have been accused, then that's hundreds of pictures each. That's too much for me to believe. I tend to agree with others that these pictures were taken for a reason and that reason was supplied by higher officers.

[Rooster7]

Firstpusk,

 

No apology was offerednor is one forthcoming, because no real insult was ever made.

 

First and foremost, I never said ScouterPaul was a farm boy, although he is from Kentucky (per his profile).

 

Second, even if I had, there is no insult in being a farm boy or being from Kentucky.

 

Third, the use of the phrase was a simple attempt to communicate a rather easy to understand concept that is, while we may have our uneducated opinions (due to the fact that we are far removed from the situation in the Middle East as well as the Oval office), the President and his administration are acting on the advice from experts in all of the appropriate fields (world politics, military, and others).

 

Fourth, if I am guilty of anything, its a little light-hearted humor. If this offends, I will not lose sleep over it.

 

Finally, my comment about self-esteem was a subtle way of saying Stop trying to read between the lines and/or just get a thicker skin (i.e. be man enough to engage in a debate and stop whining over perceived insults). Trust me, if I truly wanted to insult you, youd know it.

 

Look at what youve made me gone and done Now were debating insults or rather the perception of one. It must be Friday!

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[firstpusk]

Rooster, I guess we were brought up differently. I was taught that if something I said was perceived as an insult, I should apologize - even if no insult was intended. Your folks taught you to question their self-esteem. Have a nice weekend.(This message has been edited by firstpusk)

[Rooster7]

Firstpusk,

 

I do believe; I was just insulted. Since I perceive it to be so, it must be true. Regardless, I expect a prompt apology. By any chance, did you help write your company's sexual harassment policy? Just being curious

 

And BTW, I dont think you know my parents do you?

 

[firstpusk]

"Firstpusk,

 

I do believe; I was just insulted. Since I perceive it to be so, it must be true. Regardless, I expect a prompt apology. By any chance, did you help write your company's sexual harassment policy? Just being curious

 

And BTW, I dont think you know my parents do you?"

 

I am truly sorry that you feel that way. I don't think you intended to be insulting, but ScouterPaul perceived it that way. All my fellow scouters are a valuable resource and deserve respect for the commitment that they have for youth.

 

No, I did not write the harrassment policy. Although I did recently start here and read and signed a copy. Since that day, I have tested for compliance with the policy. I have seen a number of complaints over the years at different places and can honestly say nearly all of them could have been avoided by empathy and common courtesy.

 

No, I am pretty sure that I don't know your parents. However, they deserve a large measure of respect for raising a son who is so committed to the scouting program - just as ScouterPaul's do. Have a wonderful weekend.

[Rooster7]

Okay, your words have convicted me. Since you and ScouterPaul are a valuable resource to the BSA and deserve the same respect, I offer the same apology given me. I am truly sorry that you feel the way you do. HmmmIt's rather ambiguous and unsatisfying in several ways, but apparently it serves a purpose.

[firstpusk]

Thanks. I couldn't ask more from you, Rooster.

[ScoutParent]

NJ, I think there are probably a few things we agree on, we both care about our families, we both try to be involved in our children's activities, we both enjoy verbal sparring on here; there that's 3 off the top of my head!

 

As far as the ages of the people involved, I think that is less important than the rank of the people involved. If a private messes up, the sergeant is held accountable too. Where is the accountability of these NCO's and officers? Giving an unlawful order is just as much a criminal act as following one.

[Proud Eagle]

Nuremberg proved that just following orders is no excuse. It didn't work for the Nazis, and it shouldn't work for some American prison guards either.

 

In any case, I am willing to bet we won't find orders telling these guards to do this, because there were probably never any written orders. There may or may not have been verbal orders, but I would be willing to bet there were never any true orders.

 

There may have been suggestions, or hints, or other means used to communicate to these guards that certain actions might be useful, but the persons making those suggestions were probably smart enough not to leave a paper trail.

 

Now these soldiers should have known these were unlawful actions and refused to participate. Anyone wittnessing these actions should have acted to stop them.

 

These soldiers should also have noticed there was something odd about the way they were being told to do these things (if they in fact were told to do them). Being told to do something this unusual by some CIA person outsider their chain of command should have raised some eyebrows. They certainly should have sought guidance from some place before proceeding.

 

Those who committed the acts of abuse must be held fully accountable. Orders or no orders they committed crimes and must be punished for them.

 

Anyone who knew of the abuse and did not act to stop it must also be punished.

 

Anyone in the chain of command that failed to put in place proper means of supervision must be punished. Anyone in the chain of command that failed to hold soldiers to proper standards and failed to conduct sufficient training must be punished.

 

Anyone who suggested/ordered these abuses must also be punished.

 

However, we currently have only enough evidence to prove that the abuse took place, and that those in the photos committed the abuse. Other evidence may exist and some it may already be in the hands of investigaters. The truth must be found, the guilty punished, and steps taken to see that this sort of thing doesn't happen again.

[LovetoCamp]

The Nazis killed 6 million Jews & 20 million Russians. Saddam tok videos of blindfolded prisoners being tossed from two story buildings, the taliban hung young mother by the neck from soccer goals. Our guards let us all down, but they didn't kill anyone, heck, they didn't even hurt anyone, they just acted very poorly and made a bunch of murdering terrorist scum play a little naked twister. They should be sent back to their trailer park with a dishonorable discharge and that's all.

[ScoutParent]

Of course there is the benefit of the psychological impact this will have on would be terrorists in the Muslim world. I imagine they will have a different image of the US military and the treatment they may receive if caught.....hmm, I wonder if that is an accident?

[firstpusk]

The military is actively investigating the deaths 20 prisoners that have died in U.S. Military custody since the start of the of the war on terrorism. Two of these cases have been declared to be homocide. It is clear that the abuse does not reach the level of Hussein or the others tyrants you mentioned. It should not be downplayed either. My concern is the lowest level soldiers will pay for their crimes while the comanders, intelligence "contractors" and politicians walk away unscathed.

 

There is at least one alleged murder in Abu Ghraib prison. Granted, it is asserted by one of those charged in the abuse cases. However, the details of this death are troubling in that the prisoner evidently was never registered at the prison. According to the guard, the prisoner was brought in tortured and interogated. He died as a result and was stored on ice till the next morning. Then an ambulance shows up to pick up the patient. An IV is inserted and he is transported to the hospital where evidently he would be pronounced dead.

 

The Taguba report indicated that a male prisoner was sodomized "with a chemical light and perhaps a broomstick" and at least one guard had sex with a female prisoner. The report indicated a situation were the command simply failed to do its duty. The problems go higher than those charged. They go higher than Abu Grahaib.

[SR540Beaver]

I saw Seymour Hersh on the O'Reilly Factor last night. You might find these two articles of his interesting.

 

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact'>http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

 

and

 

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/