The noble, the brave, and the sickening

[Adrianvs]

Beaver,

 

Have you always been an isolationist, or did you suddenly become one some time during the last president's term?

[Rooster7]

SR540Beaver,

 

A few years ago I wouldn't have bet that our government in the midst of fighting the terrorists who attacked us would have committed 150,000 soldiers and 10's of billions of dollars to overthrow another government and occupy a nation that posed no credible threat to us.

 

Dont you believe in defending the defenseless?

If no other reason, was it not worth the effort and cost to prevent the torture and murder of innocent lives in Iraq?

Do you think for one minute that Iraq was not trying to develop chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons?

Would you prefer to wait for a terrorist nation to strike first?

 

But we did.

 

And I am very thankful that we did.

 

Now here we are looking at pictures of POW's being abused at our hands.

 

Hello Mr. Apple meet Mr. Orange. Please dont attempt to justify your position by mixing issues. The one event has little to do with the other.

 

[RobK]

I think we should stand back and get some perspective. The prisoners were humiliated and abused, but did any of them die? Were any of them permanently injured?

 

Were any of them run, feet first and alive, through a chipper-shredder?

 

Let the punishment fit the crime.

[firstpusk]

I agree that perspective is important. However, there are a couple of points to consider.

 

1) It was the Bush administration that used the end of human rights abuses as the justification for the invasion of Iraq. As the other justifications, the bloom is off the rose. No evidence of stockpiles of WMD. No signifcant program activities. No connection with Al-Qaeda.

 

2) Some reports I have heard and seen indicate that there are some deaths that are being investigated. Twenty-five deaths of prisoners have occurred in Afganistan and Iraq. So far at least two have been ruled homocides.

[Fat Old Guy]

I've known sailors to do incredibly stupid things, dangerous things and even illegal things. Amazingly, they do it all without direction from above.

 

What makes me think that these acts were unsanctioned someone up the chain of command is that they were stupid enough to take pictures with themselves in the shots. I can't see Maj. Grimwold of Military Intelligence saying, "Take pictures of the naked men and to make it more interesting, put you and your buddies in the picture."

[SR540Beaver]

Adrian and Rooster,

 

No, I'm not an isolationist. I believe in our Constitution and the writings of our Founding Fathers. The purpose of our military was and has always been to defend our nation. I don't see in that defense where it says to strike first out of speculation and suspicion. As a conservative independent, I don't believe in bending the meaning of the Constitution to fit the feeling of the day. It would be rather disingenious to argue that the Constitution doesn't allow abortion and then turn around and say that it does allow us to use our military as an imperial force. Our Founding Fathers didn't believe in engaging in long term foreign entanglements except for brief encounters when it benefited both sides. I agree with that. Also, liberty is something that is bought with a price, usually blood. We can not give a gift of liberty to Iraq and have them understand and appreciate it as much as if they instigated it and won it for themselves. It is not our job to liberate those who do not even attempt to liberate themselves. If that is the case, there are probably 100 more nations on the list and our grandchildren's grandchildren will still be fighting long ather we are old and dead. Do we really want to become a warring and imperial nation that seeks to recreate the rest of the world in our image? Are we that arrogant? Ask the British, the Romans and the Soviets how that ultimately went for them.

[Proud Eagle]

And if all the civil rights protesters are correct, the police in the city of Louisville have executed 7 people in the last 2 years for being the wrong color, and that the justice system then conspired to make all but 2 of those appear clean.

 

Do I believe that? Not entirely. Do I think at there was something a bit odd about a few of those events? Yeah, but I am not certain I would call it an execution. Should someone be held accountable? Yes, both those directly responsible, and if fault if found in policy, procedure, training, or leadership, then at least someone up the chain of command should also be held accountable.

 

So, if finding the truth (and proving it well enough for everyone to agree on it) in questionable activities in our own back yard is so difficult, then I am beginning to wonder if we will ever get to the bottom (or top?) of the abuse cases in Iraq.

 

At this point a few things appear certain. Prisoners were abused. At least these seven soldiers were involved in it.

 

Were others involved? I don't really know. It seems quite likely that someone else at least knew about what was going on. Certainly the chain of command in this unit, and the insolvent of other units such as military intelligence, and outside groups such as CIA and civilian contractors needs to be looked into.

[SR540Beaver]

FOG,

 

There is a theory (and at this point that is all it is) that it was done as part of psychological warfare. The pictures were intended for the purpose of showing what would happen to them even at the hands of little petite females if they don't stand down. Of course, there is now a video out of a civilian contractor being decapitated to show us what will happen if we don't leave. I'd like to think we are above using their tactics, but our intelligence community can cook up some pretty strange ideas from time to time.

[Fat Old Guy]

"There is a theory (and at this point that is all it is) that it was done as part of psychological warfare."

 

What purpose would it serve to have the soldiers in the pictures.

[SR540Beaver]

FOG,

 

That is really pretty simple. What purpose does it serve to show terrorists decapitating someone in a video? It sends a message of , "mess with us and this is what happens to you". In the male dominated and puritanical culture of Islam, having a petite female soldier standing over a naked Muslim man on a dog leash is a powerful message. I fear that instead of making them quake in fear of it happening to them, it will just strengthen their resolve to hang our people from bridges after they have been burned and mutilated. When Bush was pushing to go to war with Iraq and some people were questioning the wisdom of such actions, there were many people who advocated replaying pictures of 9/11 to remind people of what was done to us in order to incite them to support going to war. Nevermind that Iraq and Saddam had nothing to do with one another. People were angry over what happened (me included) and felt we must be proactive instead of reactive.

[buffalo2]

Is anyone else of the opinion that our media coverage (on and on and on etc) perhaps had a bit to do with the death of that contractor? Wonder if a more mature attitude of 'this isn't the normal or correct way to treat prisoners of war, and the US will make the results of a complete investigation public as soon as the information can be compiled' would have not offered the idea of a sensational publicized murder?

We are the most open society on the planet, but should demand a more responsible reporting of what is real and what is merely conjecture and guesswork designed to sell advertising time.

[ScouterPaul]

Rooster,

I know you asked Beaver the following questions but let me provide you with my answers.

 

Dont you believe in defending the defenseless?

Absoulutely. However, this was not the reason

given for invading Iraq.

If no other reason, was it not worth the effort and cost to prevent the torture and murder of innocent lives in Iraq?

No.

Do you think for one minute that Iraq was not trying to develop chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons?

No. If several hundred thousand people can't

find evidence after a year then a logical and

rational person would have to say it isn't

there.

Would you prefer to wait for a terrorist nation to strike first?

Let me answer that with a question - when do

we invade Saudia Arabia?

 

[Zahnada]

Buffalo2,

 

I generally don't buy that "It's the media's fault" attitude. The terrorists who killed that contractor have a hatred towards America that was not affected by these prisoner abuses or the media's coverage of it. They used that as their reason for murder, but if there had been no abuses, they would have said, "This is because you are occupying Iraq." The media had nothing to do with this.

[Achilleez]

Since when was Iraq a terrorist nation? Have we all forgotten that Saddam and Osama bin Laden have been enemies for decades? Saudi Arabia could be labelled a terrorist nation because its government is activley involved in terrorist operations, but Iraq? Iraq has been in disarray and chaos ever since the UN took out a majic wand and redrew the borders of the Middle East nations. And has everyone forgotten that the evidence of weapons programs was primarily left-over factories from the 80's when the USA WAS FUNDING Iraq in its war against Iran. Colon Powell's speech to the UN where he presented a container of anthrax may have been theatrically dramatic, but what he didn't mention was that anthrax has a shelf-life of a few months, and Iraq has not been producing it for 12 years.

 

Don't let politics cloud facts.

[Rooster7]

ScouterPaul,

 

Im afraid you have a selective memory. President Bush mentioned the mistreatment of the Iraqi people on numerous occasions. He never stated that our sole reason for invading Iraq was due to the development of the WMDs. Furthermore, Im a quite puzzled as to why you believe preventing the torture and murder of innocent lives is not a worthy endeavor for the most power nation in the world. Should we close our eyes to wrongdoing outside of our borders and burry our heads in the sand like an ostrich?

 

BTW, you dont honestly believe that the 125,000 soldiers stationed in Iraq were all tasked to look for WMDs? These men and women have many jobs to perform, and WMDs dont jump up and down screaming here I am. Its a safe bet that there are a very limited number of folks performing this search. Regardless, your claim is tantamount to saying theres no needle in this haystack. In regard to Saudi Arabia, I must assume that the CIA, NSA, and/or other national security agencies have more intelligence on this matter than your average farm boy from Kentucky. The fact that many of the skyjackers had roots in a particular country does not mean that countrys government was complicit. But you probably already know that

 

SR540Beaver,

 

So youre claiming that there was a strategy from on high in the military to use these pictures to humiliate and intimidate the terrorists in Iraq? Is that your supposition? I think thats pretty weak. If the Iraqis were presented with these pictures, those responsible had to know that the U.S. media and the American public would eventually see them as well. What do you think the militarys strategy was to escape condemnation OR Are you implying that they were planning to use these six guards as sacrificial lambs from the very beginning?

 

Of course, there is now a video out of a civilian contractor being decapitated to show us what will happen if we don't leave. I'd like to think we are above using their tactics, but our intelligence community can cook up some pretty strange ideas from time to time.

 

This is just plain insulting, not just to the intelligence community, but to America in general. When you can point to pictures of US soldiers decapitating Iraqis, I will seek your wisdom. Until then, your words do not reflect sound reasoningyou sound like a left-wing conspiracist or worse.