Pat Tillman - A True Hero

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Rooster7, I never pretended to know what Pat Tillman or his brother had in their minds, and what Tillman's brother stated was the same sort of knowledge that you claim to know about me.

 

But hey, what's a funeral if a bunch of superstitious god-botherers can't pretend that the deceased was religious just like them? It looks like Rich couldn't stand the hypocrisy and said what was on his mind. Ah, but I guess the feelings of religious types is worth defending, and the feelings of people like Rich can be ignored, right?

[dsteele]

Merlyn:

 

I'm very glad these threads weren't the first I read on these boards. You seem to be a reasonable and intelligent, if very stubborn, man.

 

I'm sorry you don't believe in God. I'm sorry that you seem to wish others do not.

 

However, it's been my experience that most do believe in God -- different forms and persona, perhaps, but -- most have a belief in God.

 

My question to you is what harm does a belief in a Supreme Being have that you are so opposed?

 

If there is no God, then we all die and there is nothing. No harm done for believing in life.

 

If there is a God and you proclaim there isn't one, he's going to be pretty ticked off according to everything I've read. Then you're fried when you die.

 

So what's the harm in believing?

 

Unc.

[Adrianvs]

The problem is that Merlyn would have the opinions of Rich silence the opinions of everyone else in every other situation. It's not enough that the religious keep their religious talk confined to church buildings and religious services. Religious and theists are expected to shut up whenever nonreligious or atheists show up to visit. I've seen folks at Easter and Christmas masses with their arms crossed and scowls on their faces as they end up hearing "religious blather" when they would rather not. "Why can't those religous just keep to themselves. This is a church for goodness (subjective) sakes.. Can't they find a closet someplace?"

 

Is there anything wrong with the majority voicing what they believe about a deceased person at the service designed to foster such commentary? It's hard to say that is wrong if you don't believe in objective moral truths. The most that you can say is that it displeases you to hear such things. Well, given that they please nearly everyone else present, you don't have much to go on. It is not hypocrisy to celebrate what you believe to be true. It is hypocrisy to pretend that you have a moral basis for your distain for any actions that do not involve you directly.

 

Merl,

No one is ignoring people like Rich. In fact, it was only the "superstitions" of everyone else present that prevents Rich from becoming a corpse himself. After all, what direct good was he providing for those present? If Rich wanted his own service where he could sit with the corpse and ponder on the non-existance of Pat's soul, then I'm sure that he could have scheduled one before or after the service designed for other reasons.

 

You seem very concerned about whose feelings are being defended. Have you considered that the majority of the people here are defending the majority opinion at the service because we believe that they are right? It is obvious that you are defending Rich's opinion because you believe that he is right. I still don't see the relevance of the opinion and factual claim of one person at the service. Is that supposed to change our opinion of the existance of God, the nature of the soul, or Pat Tillman's level of virtue? What is the point?

 

For someone who apparently doesn't believe in the immortality of the soul, you sure do spend a lot of time trying to antagonize a subset of the population (theistic scouters). Time is ticking away.. Is this really the most fulfilling thing that you could be doing right now? There is no karma involved. You aren't growing in virtue. You aren't working out a salvation. It's all physical which means that its all downhill for you. The only things that you could hope to affect are the action potentials in the brains of a bunch of bewildered apes which you will never come into contact with. What does it matter if society continues in the superstitions that it has held for thousands of years? What does it matter to you? Have you reached middle age yet? Every atheist is a terminal patient, so to speak. If this is all that I had left in existance, I certainly wouldn't be harrassing self-deluded people on message boards. Im sure that I would find something more interesting to occupy myself with while my body slowly decayed...(This message has been edited by Adrianvs)

[NJCubScouter]

When I read all this about Pat Tillman's youngest brother, my reaction is:

 

Can't we give the kid a break?

 

Of course his attire, behavior and language were not appropriate -- when viewed with the cool, calm eyes of people whose brothers have not just died. But his brother did just die. (And by the way, though we don't know the brother's age, I believe Pat Tillman was around 27, so this "youngest" brother is probably in his early 20's or perhaps younger.) Haven't you folks ever seen someone react emotionally -- even somewhat irrationally -- in their time of grief after losing a loved one? I sure have. Although the most common emotional reaction is just sorrow and the pain of loss, another possible reaction is anger. So this kid took no care in what he was going to wear, or what he was going to say, and when he got up, he said the first thing that popped into his head. In a situation like that, it is unlikely that the first thing that pops into one's head is likely to be very profound or illumination. But he did not prevent anyone else from making statements of a religious nature, he just reacted to them. I can see how someone who has just lost their brother, is attending the funeral and hears an endless series of statements along the lines of "God called him home" or "It was God's will," which people tend to say at funerals, might lash back emotionally. I think that for many mourners, the time to "put things in perspective" is not necessarily right away, and everybody runs on their own clock when it comes to this sort of sitaution.

 

I do have to disagree with Merlyn, I don't think the brother's statement necessarily indicates that Pat Tillman was a non-believer in God. Not being "religious" does not automatically equate to a non-belief in God.

[Rooster7]

NJ,

 

I agree with you (now that's a rare event) that Pat Tillman's youngest brother is one or more of these things:

 

1) Grieving deeply

2) Relatively young and somewhat immature - that's not intended to be an insult

3) Very emotional

4) And probably somewhat non-religious himself

 

Given the above, I do understand why he reacted as he did. I'm not condemning him. But, I'm not relating to his thoughts either. I feel he did not do his brother a service with his words. And I think when Rich establishes a better relationship with God; he will be very regretful that he spoke those words. I say this because I believe in the power of prayer, and I'm certain that hundreds, if not thousands, are praying for him. Rich Tillman obviously loved his brother if he ever asks himself where did that love come from, hell realize that there is a God.

[Fat Old Guy]

He probably regrets uttering those words already.

[NJCubScouter]

Rooster says:

 

And I think when Rich establishes a better relationship with God; he will be very regretful that he spoke those words. I say this because I believe in the power of prayer, and I'm certain that hundreds, if not thousands, are praying for him. Rich Tillman obviously loved his brother if he ever asks himself where did that love come from, hell realize that there is a God.

 

Maybe. I'm sure that is what you think and believe. But I think you are projecting your beliefs onto other people. Not everybody who believes in God necessarily believes all of what you have written above.

 

Another thing that I notice is that unlike you, I have no opinion about other peoples' relationships with God, or what they will realize if they pray or if they think about love or anything else. I really don't care about other peoples' relationships with God. That is for them and God to sort out at the appropriate time. I do care about their relationships with the rest of the human race. As Thomas Jefferson said, "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

 

 

[Rooster7]

NJ,

 

In your faith, do you feel all paths lead to God - OR - do you simply feel you have no burden from God to tell your neighbor the truth? Or is it something else?

 

In my faith, I am confident that there is one God, and he expects us those who believe in Him - to tell others the truth. It's that simple.

 

What does "projecting your beliefs onto other people, mean? Has my expression of faith somehow hinder someone elses faith? Am I forcing others to believe as I do? If so, explain to me exactly how this has occurred.

 

You can express your faith as meekly as you desire. I am confident in mine. This fact cannot stop you or others from embracing whatever you're feel led to do whether it's inspired by your own feelings or the reality of GodI have no control over that inspiration or your ultimate choice.