Does the BSA discriminate?

[Bob White]

The Balboa case is irrelevant to this conversation. The BSA is being challenged because it refuses to abandon its support and use of faith and moral conviction. Not because it discriminates against atheists.

 

If you do not hold a religious belief then you have no religious creed, in which case you cannot be discriminated against for holding a different one. Having no creed is is not the same as having a different one. Atheists are not discriminated against for their choice in religious creed. They effectively are excluded from that decision because they have no religious creed. Atheists are discriminated against for the absence of a moral component that the BSA has determined is required for membership.

 

So no, the BSA does not discriminate on based on religious creed.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob White writes:

The Balboa case is irrelevant to this conversation. The BSA is being challenged because it refuses to abandon its support and use of faith and moral conviction. Not because it discriminates against atheists.

 

Sorry Bob, the BSA's religious discrimination is all over the case, if you'll bother to read it.

 

If you do not hold a religious belief then you have no religious creed, in which case you cannot be discriminated against for holding a different one.

 

Discriminating against someone for NOT being married is still discrimination on the basis of marital status; discriminating against someone for not holding a religious creed is discrimination based on creed.

 

Sorry, you're completely wrong.

 

For example, just look at the EEOC, whose job it is to clarify what discrimination means:

http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/threshold.html

...

c. Religion

...

Religious discrimination also includes discrimination against someone because s/he is an atheist.(26)

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

[duplicate message deleted](This message has been edited by Merlyn_LeRoy)

[packsaddle]

I wonder...is it possible to be a religious organization and NOT discriminate on the basis of religion?

[acco40]

The church (lower case meaning local) that charters our Troop (Espiscopal) states on its web site that it is "a welcoming, accepting Christian community open for all people." From that, I'd say that it does not discriminate (legally or illegally) on the basis of religion. Note, it does not say "a welcoming, accepting community open for all Chistian people."; which would be discriminatory (and legal). I think that is what is getting it in hot water with a few folks.

[Fat Old Guy]

"And FOG, get off your Girl Scout knocking. It is not very becoming."

 

I will continue to bash the GSUSA as long as they discriminate against men and boys.

[NeilLup]

Hello acco,

 

I think your answer is in your post just above. If your purpose is to drain the swamp (obtain storage space) rather than to get into a microbiological investigation of what lives in the swamp, then could you ask your chartering organization, which is a welcoming community, to obtain the storage space for you. You are, after all, their youth group and they pretty clearly would qualify under the terms that the storage organization wishes.

[Hunt]

From a legal basis, I don't think there's any basis to argue that discriminating against atheists isn't discriminating on the basis of religion. (What "creed" means is harder to say--it may mean discriminating among religions--but it's irrelevant because the clause in question uses both terms). And while the Episcopal Church may be a "welcoming community," can you really become a full member without professing faith? But it is certainly true that the storage company has the right to interpret its own rule, so it's certainly OK to ask them if the scouts qualify. If they say no, you wouldn't have any recourse anyway.

[Hunt]

Not to belabor this too much, but if you take a look at the canons of the Episcopal Church USA (see http://www.churchpublishing.org/general_convention/pdf_const_2003/Title_I_OrgAdmin.pdf), you'll see that the church does discriminate on religious grounds--for example, no person who has not been baptized may take communion, or become a member, and adults are "expected" to make a "mature affirmation" upon joining. But really, it would be absurd to criticize a church for discriminating on the basis of religion, at least with regard to membership or hiring of clergy.

[evmori]

While I hate to admit it, the statement by Merlyn is accurate!

Discriminating against someone for NOT being married is still discrimination on the basis of marital status; discriminating against someone for not holding a religious creed is discrimination based on creed.

 

Now, is discrimination still discrimination if the Supreme Court rules it legal?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[EagleInKY]

Virtually every organization does discreminate to some degree. Many worthy, charitible, non-profits require you to be of a certain age to be a member. Can an 8 year old join the Y (without an adult)? I don't know, but I wouldn't criticize them if their rules prohibited it. If the VFW limited it's members to veterans of foreign wars, I would assume they are limited to people of a certain age (old enough to have fought in a war), and are citizens of the U.S. Again, I don't know that they do, but if they did, I wouldn't criticize them for it.

 

IMHO, the majority of people do not view the Boy Scouts as being a discrimenatory organization. You are perfectly within your rights to request the space. If the owners sees it otherwise, then thank him for considering it and move on. I wish there was someone around here that offered that.

[Adrianvs]

As Merlyn seems to indicate, not all religions profess belief in a deity. This is true; there are purely ethical religions. What he does not realize is that according to his broad definition of religion, any ethical statement may be considered religious. Ethical statements like the Scout Law are no more or less religious than the mention of God in the Oath. If you define religion as a systematic worship system, then neither are religious. If you define religion as a metaphysical or value-based belief system, then they both are. The point is that you have to reject both or neither. If Merlyn and his kin want to reject the mention of God so that atheists may join, he must also reject the Scout Law so that nihilists or any others who value dishonesty, treachery, apathy, rudeness, malice, subordination, uncleanliness, etc. The organization is designed for those who believe in God and the values of the Scout Law. Remove any one of them and you have no basis to keep the rest. You are better off starting a new organization that professes the values (or lack thereof) that you hold.

[acco40]

Yo Adrian, (sorry could not resist), although off topic to some extent, I have to say I'm totally baffled by your post. Ethics = religion according to Merlyn? Please elighten.