United Methodist Church

[Fat Old Guy]

"I've been a Southern Baptist all my life. The Southern Baptists are the largest protestant denomination in the world. We don't have a creed."

 

Sure you do, you just haven't been paying attention. Visit http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#i

 

That's a creed if there ever was one. Simply saying, "I believe that the Christ is the son of God" is stating a creed.

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

FOG,

 

I'm fully aware of and familiar with the Baptist Faith and Message. I even took an elective course in it at the Baptist University where I got my degree in Religion. Back up a page on the website to http://www.sbc.net/bfm/default.asp and read this:

 

"Baptists cherish and defend religious liberty, and deny the right of any secular or religious authority to impose a confession of faith upon a church or body of churches. We honor the principles of soul competency and the priesthood of believers, affirming together both our liberty in Christ and our accountability to each other under the Word of God.

 

Baptist churches, associations, and general bodies have adopted confessions of faith as a witness to the world, and as instruments of doctrinal accountability. We are not embarrassed to state before the world that these are doctrines we hold precious and as essential to the Baptist tradition of faith and practice.

 

FOG, you may see that as a creed, but Baptists see it differently from the creeds of other denominations. It is a set of commonly held beliefs put on paper to describe what most Baptists believe. But it is not mandated or binding on being a member of a Southern Baptist church as other churches view creeds. You say poe-tay-toe, I say poe-tah-toe. Each Southern Baptist church is autonomous and has no hierarchy above it. We are the opposite of the Catholic church in structure. They have a Pope and Bishops who dictate all the way down to the local parish. Baptists have individual churches who send delegates to a convention to elect a president to preside over the convention. The convention serves the purpose of training and sending missionaries, operating seminaries, printing literature, etc. at the direction of the individual churches delegates. It is an upside down pyramid. The Catholic church does not exist without the Pope. The Southern Baptist Convention doesn't exist without the individual churches.

 

 

[Bob White]

Beaver, with all due respect, I would never presume to explain another persons faith. While I respect your knowledge of yours, please be careful about speaking on behalf of others.

 

To say the Catholic church would not exist without a Pope is far from accurate. The Roman Catholic "Faith" is lead by the Pope who we believe to be Christ's representative on Earth. The Shepherd of His flock. The Roman Catholic "church" is made of the Catholic faithful of a community, wherever they gather in worship forms a church. So a church can and has existed without a Pope as there have been brief times in history when there was no seated Pope. Yet the Catholic church still existed. The Pontiff is not the center of the faith, he is the recognized earthly leader.

[scoutldr]

Bob White said: Youth of the UUA, youth of Wiccan covens, youth of the Episcopalian Church as well as the Methodist church are all welcome to join Scouting, as are the adult members of those same organizations. The only thing the BSA has said is that those organizations cannot charter a scout unit, because they have said they will break the rules.

 

My unit is chartered by a UMC...should I be looking for a new CO?????

 

[Bob White]

Not at all. I had the Methodist Church there because the previous poster included them. I should ahve filtered that statement. Some methodist churches have decided not to charter units, but the SA has not chosen to restrict them as chartering organizations or as memmbers.

 

My point was the poster suggested that UUA, Wiccans and others could not be members. That is not true, the BSA restricts a few organizatins as COs for their refussal to abide by BSA policies but that does not restrict individuals of those organizations from joining.

 

By the way it would unique to have a unit charetred to a UMC church, as a national effort the UMC charters its units through the Methodist Mens Club.

 

 

 

[tjhammer]

My point was the poster suggested that UUA, Wiccans and others could not be members. That is not true, the BSA restricts a few organizatins as COs for their refussal to abide by BSA policies but that does not restrict individuals of those organizations from joining. True. All these boys from any of those churches can join, just so long as they are willing to subjugate the teachings and beliefs of their religious leaders and families to the policies of the BSA.

 

"Absolutely non-sectarian."

[Bob White]

tjhammer

That is an absolute falsehood! And I think you know that.

 

Only the BSA membership violations by the Wiccans and the UUA keep them from being able to charter a scout unit. Nothing in their belief system stops them from being a member.

 

But then you knew that too and did't mention it.

 

[tjhammer]

Bob, you're mixing your arguments and avoiding the point. Of course the only reason those churches can't charter a BSA unit is because they won't succumb to this one new BSA policy. That's not the point of my last post, and your indignation is just misleading.

 

The salient point is this: a boy who sits in the Episcopalian congregation of Bishop Gene Robinson, or who has a parent that is gay, or is himself gay, must subjugate the teachings and beliefs of his family and church to the BSA's position that "an avowed homosexual cannot serve as a role model".

 

In order for this boy to get the amazing, life-shaping experience that Scouting can offer he's asked to accept that the BSA (an "absolutely non-sectarian" group) is correct and his family and church are wrong.(This message has been edited by tjhammer)

[packsaddle]

Rather than make you suffer through my own rendition of UU beliefs or history, I refer you to several sites that seem reasonable in their presentation (although very brief):

http://www.uua.org/pamphlet/3057.html

In this one, you will learn that UUs have churches, fellowships, and societies. Read it for the details. The local fellowship became a church after they decided to acquire a minister.

http://www.uufhc.net/s021117.html

http://www.uua.org/pamphlet/3600.html

These short histories give some idea of how UUs came to be and why they greatly predate modern protestant flavors. Also, SR540Beaver, the precursors to the UUs in the USA arrived, along with other Puritans, on the Mayflower. Note the relationship to the Calvinists and Congregationalists. One of the other groups was a precursor to modern Baptists. UUs actually share much with the Baptists. Readers will also understand why, in our community, the scientists, academics, and artists tend to be UUs if they belong to any church.

http://www.uua.org/aboutuua/principles.html

Finally, the UUA principles and purposes for FOG. As FOG says, there is no creed. I know the "Apostles' Creed" in several variations - and I also know there is no similarly rigid statement in the UU religion. However, I suggest that FOG is wrong in his assertion that such rigidity is necessary to have a religion. But that is probably a matter of personal opinion. Anyone else care to disagree?

Finally, without revealing the identity of the person who sent me the message, I stand by the assurance I received that should a UU church agree to BSA regulations, they would be welcomed as a CO by BSA. If that person reads this, perhaps that person will respond with a more definitive statement. Words beyond that can now be minced ad libitum (Heh, heh, I just had to do that).

[Bob White]

Tjhammer

 

If you are saying that a person has to accept the membership rules and beliefs of an organization in order to join that organization, I can only say...Well DUH Yeah!

 

Why would you join a group whose tenets you didn't agree with?

 

And by the way the rule isn't new, you're just evidently new to the rule.

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

Bob says:

 

My point was the poster suggested that UUA, Wiccans and others could not be members.

 

Since I was the one who had mentioned Wiccans, I have to assume that I am the "poster" referred to by Bob. Bob's statement is false. I never suggested that members of the UUA, Wiccans and others could not be members. I was speaking about being able to charter units, including the ability to charter a unit for the primary or sole purpose of bringing Scouting to members of the particular religion. What I said was this:

 

"If the BSA would just decide to comply with that Declaration instead of ignoring the part about being "non-sectarian," it would permit organizations such as the UUA, Reform Jewish congregations, Wiccan churches, some Methodist congregations, some Episcopalian congregations, and some of a number of other denominations, to use the Scouting program to benefit youth in their organizations and communities consistent with their own moral beliefs that discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is against God's will, just as it could continue to allow those of other religions and denominations to do the same consistent with their own belief that God has declared homosexuality to be immoral."

 

So, contrary to Bob's false statement, there is nothing in what I said that "suggests" that individual UUA members or Wiccans cannot be Scouts or Scouters. I am aware that they can be -- though not in a unit chartered to their own religious organization. And it is worth noting that if UUA members or Wiccans (or members of congregations of other religions that have decided not to charter units over this issue) are members, they may be confronted with the fact that the BSA insists that its units follow a particular religious teaching (the immorality of homosexuality) that is contrary to the religious teaching of their own religion.

 

That is just the kind of conflict that the Declaration of Religious Principles is designed to avoid... but I guess Bob and others think that it is ok to ignore basic the principles of the BSA if it advances their political/religious agenda. One wonders why they don't just go off and form their own organization where they can discriminate against whoever they want.

 

[Fat Old Guy]

"However, I suggest that FOG is wrong in his assertion that such rigidity is necessary to have a religion"

 

Not rigidity, standardization. How can we share a religion if I worship Crom and you worship Baal? It just don't work. It sounds like the same sort of desperate cry by the homosexuals who claim that they are normal, the UU cries, "We are a religion, we just don't believe in anything."

 

Tjhammer, would a boy be accepted on Soccer team if he stated loudly that he intended to pick up the ball and run with it at every opportunity? The answer is no. To play a game or to join an organization, you must be willing to abide by the rules. Pretty simple concept except to a few people.

[Proud Eagle]

The BSA can not adapt to every belief system and every set of personal opinions. BSA is an organization based on common principals and shared beliefs. If it tries to adapt its principals and beliefs to be acceptable to the beliefs and opinions of all people it will in the end no longer have any shared beliefs at all. I would rather the BSA have some very rare and narrow "sectarian" exclusions than try to meet the needs and wants of all the various beliefs and opinions held by anyone.

 

I don't know about the Wiccans, but I know with the UUA there would be more than just the homosexual issue at stake. UUA fellowships accept any religious or non-religious beliefs. So the duty to God in the Oath and the 12th point of the law are problems for the UUA even if there was no homosexual issue.

 

What would be the point in having the 12th point of the law and the duty to God if we become so "non-sectarian" that we must accept even those who fully reject the idea of a higher power and reject also any religious obligations?

 

It is obvious that both the Oath and the Law are of far greater importance than any statement of religious principals the BSA may create.

 

Further, the use of the term "non-sectarian" is actually quite interesting. Given American history it would not be all together beyond possibility to interpret that to mean not giving preference to any of the Christian sects. In fact if this had been written in the 18 or 19th centuries it would be almost impossible to escape such an interpretation. Now that obviously isn't the way BSA intends it at this point, but it is still interesting that is wording used. The Catholic Church for example would completely reject the idea that it is either a sect or denomination. (Actually the Church more or less rejects the idea of denominations of Christianity entirely.) Instead the Catholic Church is just that, a church. (Its own opinion is that it is THE Church, but obviously BSA can't cater to that view, because that would be a preference for Catholicism.)

 

[purcelce]

I usually stay away religious discussion but I'll add my humble two cents.

 

My belief is that you must keep Christ first.

 

May you all have a blessed Palm Sunday.

 

YIS and Yours in Christ.

 

 

Cary

[Bob White]

My point NJ was that the member of any religion may join scouting, and that is what the BSA's statement on being non-sectarian refers to. You misrepresent it to be in reference to its charter process.

 

Anyone of any religion may be a member of the BSA as long as they follow the policies of the organization just as is expected of every member regardless of their chosen faith.