Americans with Disabilities Act -- does it apply to High Adventure?

[boleta]

Fuzzy,

Insightful as usual. But, I think, perhaps, that you are an expert in dealing with these kids with special needs. I am not. And I can't help but wonder sometimes how much the parents facilitate the behavioral problems.

 

My wife and I have wonderful friends who cannot say no to their children. It drives us crazy when they misbehave and are told to stop, repeatedly, with no consesquences to their actions. Guess what? The kids know no limits to their behavior and there is no discipline in their lives.

 

The challenged scout in this thread, let's call him Bobby, may have given enough reasons on the shakedown hikes to deny his attendance at Philmont. If there were problems on the shakedown hikes and he was still allowed to go, then you are telling the other Scouts that there is one set of rules for them and another set for Bobby. If Bobby knows that profanity or misbehavior after specific warnings results in being sent home, and it is enforced, then the misbehavior will stop or Bobby will be gone.

 

I would like to hear from Mike as to the specific problems that occurred and how they were handled. How did this affect the other Scouts? It has been my experience that the kids really resent it if a double standard of behavior is allowed to occur. Scout Oath and Law and all that.

[Fuzzy Bear]

boleta,

 

I know you are waiting on MikeF's reply but the kids that you are speaking about are "normal" kids. They have a lack of discipline and they act accordingly. That is a different problem. (*as you wrote about them)

 

I have knowledge in the area of disabilities and I deal with these individuals. I find that the answers are not always evident but experience and knowledge does help.

 

As far as having two sets of standards for a unit that has disabled Scouts that should not be the case. Disabilities range in severity and type (physical, emotional, mental). I was addressing the safety issue as being paramount in making choices for inclusion. It is also the easiest way to know if an individual should be included.

 

I would not encourage two sets of standards for behavior. The Scout Oath and Law are to be observed by everyone in the Troop and if a person cannot abide by those standards then there will need to be extra help given to accommodate that individual from outside the unit before they will be included.

 

I want to give one example. It came up several years ago when a young person wanted to be a Scout but was wheelchair bound. The Mother wanted her son to be pushed by another Scout when the Troop went on hikes. This particular unit either went backpacking where the area was not accessible or went to areas where there were few accommodations for her son. The Mother was adamant about including her son. The leader said that until the areas they traveled were accessible and had accommodations, then he could not be involved. If she would have pushed the issue, the unit would have not been able to go to places the Scouts wanted to go and it would have defeated the program for the majority.

 

It is important to know about the disability and to know the functional limitations to determine if the person can function within the unit, event, or set of standards. It is important to set these guidelines for being involved to maintain safety in any of those three areas.

 

Now there is extra work in figuring out if the child can maintain within the parameters of the unit but it does not mean that the expectations of Scouting should be destroyed. The attempt to include those individuals is important to those individuals and if done successfully, you will find a new definition for the word appreciation.

 

FB

 

[tmillerfamily]

My son has ADD (not Hyper ADDHD) and had been attending Camp Royenah and other Boy Scout camps since he was a Bear in Cub Scouts. These camps have run from 3 to seven days.

 

With his level of ADD he appears to not be in tuned with what is going on. But, he has been able to complete 15+ merit badges (including Rifle, Archery, Camping and a few others that included written reports) in his four years of attending Boy Scout Summer Camp. His only concession is that he has very hard time writing.

 

As for Rifle and Archery, he has always followed the safety rules and understands the seriousness of them. With the Environmental Science Merit Badge, I had to cut his essay short after writing twice the amount that was required. He is very intelligent and is in English honors class at his high School.

 

He and his brother (who is younger) were registered to go the 2005 national jamboree at the Army Base A.P. Hill in Virginia. At the Third Jamboree Troop meeting the Troop adult leadership made the decision that he can not go due their observations.

 

In their observations they mentioned that he does not stand still during the opening pledge of allegiance. This is one of the symptoms of ADD. He is also 15 years old. They are afraid of him not being able to navigate a trip of this magnitude and not being able to get the most out of the experience.

 

No one is the Troop leadership talked with the Scout about their concerns. They did not attempt to council the scout as to how serious their concerns were. He is not interested in participating in High adventure activities at the Jamboree. He has LAIR ( Learning Activities Involving Risks. ) At this camp, they did Mountain bike riding, Climbing Wall, Zip Line and a low ropes course. He did not pose a threat to himself or others participating in these activities. This is one of the reasons that I believe he does possess the mental and emotional skills to navigate this Jamboree trip.

 

He has volunteered at Cub day camps for three years and has been helpful.

 

Can anyone help me with this? How does the ADA apply to Scout activities on Military Bases? According to the discussion I read, it would apply to the National Jaboree since it is on Government property.

 

He has been wanting to quit scouting until this Jamboree troop started. Since the first meeting, he has been excited about Scouts again.

 

Now, after they told them he could not go, he is asking to quit again.

 

I need help in saving this young man's Scouting experience

 

Sorry for writting so much, I just need to support my reasons for pursuing this other that being the boys Father.

 

thanks

[anarchist]

Tmillerfamily,

these things are never easy....

Sorry but there is little in the ASA to help you in this...the location of the event seems to have nothing to do with your 'problem' It appears that the 'unit' is making the decission...More important, and I know this is hard to take as a parent; Your position and tactic on this is wrong. Advocating for ones children is important, but at what cost to the others?

 

What if the trek leaders do not feel if they can accept or handle the added responcibilities? What if a problem does arise? Should the other boys on the trek have to endure the results?

 

The Adults leading a trek have plenty of problems and pressures without the added issues they may think will need to be addressed if your son attends. Now before you take offense, have you volunteered to go as your sons "AID"?...it could be all you need to do to take the weight off their shoulders. If you are unable or un-willing to assist your son, why should they and the others on the trip need to take on the extra responcibility?

 

Sometimes in our quest to squeeze the most out of life for our children we forget the other children in the situation. Our troop has several ADD scouts (including one of mine) Sometimes this presents a problem, many times we have lots of parent aids going on trips...with bags of meds). There are things some of these boys can not do....

But let me flip the situation on you...Last Year our troop sent a crew to SEABASE, I really wanted to go...but due to some health issues I could not really pass the Class III physical...though I could have breezed through a local clinic to get the form signed...(All who went said I could have breezed through SEABASE...) but my answer was, and still is the same..."the chance of an unfortunate 'event' ruining the trip for the crew simply was not something I had a right to 'impose' on the rest of the guys".

Give it some thought...are you right in this?

[ehcalum]

Hey all,

 

I have skimmed over this thread a bit to get a general idea of whats going on (please excuse me if i'm repeating anything). 1st allow me to point out that I am "disabled" and thus protected under ADA. I am legally deaf and wear binural hearing aids. I am ASM for your status quo scout troop which is highly active in the outdoors. I am also a Trainer for all Red Cross certs and a guide for a local outdoor group.

 

From what I've read, the youth has not improved in his settings. Dr's are great but if one is a family member it is easy to get personally involved in the case. I would say that the youth should not be allowed to attend the Philmont trek, this time around. He seem to hold not only potential harm to himself, but to those in his crew/troop as well. From a safety standpoint alone he should not be allowed to attend. However, if he improves over time, say a year of light hikes and backpacking trips that grow harder throughout the year AND attends with a leader who is skilled with youth that have his type of situation, then he should be allowed to attend a trek.

 

ADA is great, but many people abuse it for personal worth. I have only had to claim ADA once when in college when I was discriminated and put down by a professor due to my hearing. if a youth with a disability wants to go on a trip it should be up to the parents and leaders to guage this persons situation. Parents should be mindful of their sons situation. Also remember the BSA offers alternate requirements for the ranks and many merit badges.

 

The troop I work with thinks hughly of me and respects me for who I am. They also know that if I don't feel safe or If I think that I could cause harm to the troop during an outing, then they know that I wouldn't attend. Sorry for so many "I's"

 

Hope this gives you a perspective to see whats its like on the disabled side of the line.

[nldscout]

tmillerfamily

As some have pointed out the ADA does not apply to BSA, even at the National Jamboree. Have you talked directly to the Jamboree troop leaders to see what thier concerns are? They may not feel qualified to handle this scout in the setting of the NSJ. I was a troop ASM at the NSJ in 2001, we had a scout that was disabled. Luckly his Home troop SM was also the NSJ troop SM. If he had not been there I would have hesitated to take this scout with me. I know it may sound harsh, but the 4 troop leaders have 36 scouts to look after and a very large area that they are spread over each day. It can be a challange for any leader.

 

I would talk to the leaders and and the Council as its a council call because the NSJ troop is under the council oversight. See if some accomidation can be made. Does he have friends going that can help him stay on track?

 

 

[anarchist]

nldscout,

 

Is there something special about a council troop going to Jambo??? The Trek guides always leave final make-up of the crew/team to the Trek Leader!?! are you saying that Council can force the participation of someone the leader feels is not up to a trip??? That seems to place unacceptable liability on the trip leaders, the troop and the CO?!!

[tmillerfamily]

Tmillerfamily here.

 

My main objection to the Jamboree leaderships descision is that they have only observed my son from afar. They have not spoken with him to give him a chance to prove himself.

 

His brother and a friend are going in the same troop and are willing to help if needed.

 

The leadership has not discussed any options with me.

 

It is similar to the DMV telling you could not drive anymore because they saw you drive twice and they felt you did not display what it takes to drive saftly with out any further explanation.

 

The Venture Crew has taken thier Scout in Question to Shake down events to at least give him a chance. This shows they are at least willing to what they can to help. Not just observe him from a distance.

 

I hope this clerifies why I am taking the position that I am.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nldscout]

anarchist,

Yes there is something special about a NSJ troop. The troop is a councilwide troop, generally made up of boys from all over the council. The council picks who is in the troops. Unless these leaders are different than everyother NSJ troop, the council has the last say. The leaders can either accept it or resign. I would imiagine that the council and the leaders they recruited would talk this over before any decision was made, or atleast I would hope so.

 

by the way there is no CO in a NSJ troop, the council is the owner.

[CubsRgr8]

tmillerfamily, as you've presented the information, the situation seems to have been handled very poorly by the JTroop leadership. Perhaps your sons and their friend will need to switch to another JTroop. Perhaps the leader(s) need to step down if they cannot overcome their (apparent) prejudices against your son. Perhaps your son is indeed unable to attend jamboree due to his limitations. In the meantime, I offer the following suggestions.

 

Immediately (as soon as you read this message!) contact council and inform them that you disagree with the JTroop leaders' decision to exclude your son and that you plan to meet with the leaders ASAP to review their decision. This is to make sure council doesn't give away your son's slot to another scout on the waiting list.

 

Then, meet with the JTroop Scoutmaster and the other troop leaders, including the SPL, ASAP. Bring along documentation you have which supports your case that your son has proven he is able to handle this trip. Ask them to confirm the reasons you heard they don't feel your son should attend and then (calmly) present your materials. If they remain unpersuaded, politely thank them for their time, let them know you disagree, and inform them that you will ask council to intervene. Then do so promptly.

 

Let the forum know how it turns out. As shown earlier in the thread, we will all benefit if you share your experience with us.

 

[tmillerfamily]

Wow, thanks for this plan of action. I have already met with the Jamboree Troop leadership. Unfortunatly this was the night we were informed of their descision to not let him go. Emotions on my part where high.

 

I have already spoken with our DE and the Jamboree Chair. they have informed me that I will be hearing from the Council camping chair and the counil exec to set up a meeting to discuss.

 

On the bright side, we did visit a new troop last night and it looks like a better fit for my two sons than the current home troop.

 

tad

[Fuzzy Bear]

Time,

After I reread your post on the Troop leaders decision based on your son not being able to stand at attention during the pledge, I was amazed at the Troop leader's decision. There has to be something else that your son did. After years of being around Scouts of all ages and circumstances, I don't believe that we have ever countered such a problem with such a harsh reaction. The leaders must be Leadership Impaired to have not first counseled with your son to see what could be done. Eliminating somebody from participation based on what you said is an overreaction or outright fear.

 

I have worked with ADD/ADHD kids in high school classes and worked with them while they attended college classes and have yet had one that I had to send home. Counsel, yes. Correct, yes but 100% were able to take and act on the spoken word. Unless there is another problem, that has not been stated

 

 

FB

[anarchist]

nldscout,

interesting concept (that the Council would have last word on a 'scout readiness' determination when council is not leading the Trek) but I doubt if you are correct on this one. I called my council office and the adjoining council ofice for a hypothetical...both answered with a few reservations (about talking it over throughly)and the old "it's hard to say 100%", that they would never force the leaders to take a scout deemed by the NJS troop leadership to be unable to perform, a danger or and undue liability to the unit. And my council office says it would consider itself to be a CO in the hypothetical "noted" example...same purpose and liability.....I wonder what other council folks would have to say...and as to your comment about having the jambo SM resign...hardly think Councils would go that far...those guys are not found hanging on trees!

I for one, would not lead a trip to the bathroom with a scout I felt was not up to the trip...The other scouts and my family assets are too important to crash and burn for the sake of a bureaucrat...

[nldscout]

anarchist

the council is leading this trek. This is a NSJ troop, they operate under the council directly. So like anything else the council does they have the final say.

 

Yes I agree that maybe the would not force someone to take a youth they didn't want. But they could, they have that right as the troop sponsor, same as your CO/COR can direct that a youth be allowed in the troop even if you don't want them.