Problems with Charter Organization

[FScouter]

Memo to other units:

Avoid this hassle. Keep on good terms with your chartered organization.

[Bob White]

right on Fscouter. That is the real lesson here. Ypu will have a stronger, better longer lived program when you are the youth activity of your charter organization and everyone understands that. We have a church in town undergoing a multi-million dollar renovation that includes a new scout room. The unit leaders were invited in for a wish-session with the architect when the building was being planned.

 

That is an organization that understands the relationship. That could be any one of your units if....You decide to make it happen.

[Scoutmaster Ron]

Does a CO have claim to the boy's scout accounts?

[Bob White]

In every case I know of the term "scout account" is a tag line, there is no physical account that carries the scouts name or an legally binding agreement. The unit money is almost always in one single acount.

 

The question is not, does the CO have any legal claim, it is... does the scout have any legal claim to it. No.

 

The money was raised by an activity group of the charter organization using the name and images of the BSA. The CO and BSA have stewardship of the assets. While the unit exists the CO allow the unit committee be responsible for the money. Not own it, just be responsible for it.

[pdunbar]

I want to thank everyone for their reply. To the person who talked about what is really important about scouting.....I totally agree. While making a change in CO's we have maintained good scout spirit with the boys. In all honesty the boys have always been blessed with an above average program. To the person with the church analogy, I haven't looked into nor plan to look into the real legalities of ownership. Just because by scout rules the CO owns everything, I don't know if in the real world is it legal, considering we were forced to make this move when 2 leaders were going to be banned by the CO. One leader was charged with the crime of making too many Eagles. Scout organizations do make mistakes.....just look at the ban on gays.(this is a separate issue) We can and will move on. Our biggest problem with our past CO is the fact that our boys had money in individual accounts adminstered by the CO and they won't return it to the boys. As far as the rest of the money and gear, we can live without it. PS Last nights meeting...built tripods, hung water balloons from them, and then started fires to break balloons......awesome fun!!!!s

[Bob White]

pdunbar

 

This threasd started with the suggestion you get training, that is a good point to revisit.

 

Do not think that the policies of scouting are not real world. Some have been challenged and supported all the way to the US Supreme Court, including your opinion of the "mistake with homosexuals". The annual charter agreement that the istitutional head of every CO signs each year with the local council is very real, and very legal.

 

Troop Committee challenge will teach you of the authority of the Charter Organization representative.

 

New Leader Essentials will explain the Charter Organization process of scouting and the ownership of the units by the COs.

 

Each scout has their own account??? Do you mean that it is not just a line item in the budget of the troop account? You actually open a separate bank account for each scout? That would be rare indeed.

 

Your biggest problem at this point is not the actions of the CO, but your own misconceptions and lack of information on the structure of the scouting program.

[Davej775]

What happens when parents and leaders have bought equipment for the troop in the past, never submitted receipts for reimbursment and just donated for the cause as the troop thrived. Now the troop is all but dissolved due to very poor recruitment and all of the Scouts, now 17 and older, have moved on or are moving on. I have been approched to return Dutch ovens, fry pans,gas lanters, and lp gas cylanders they had let the troop use while it was active. The Church Budget had always been only $100.00 for the Scouts per year! I gave as did other parents, leaders, many times over as $100.00 per year hardly covers anything and is a token amount. Do I return the requested items listed here, to the origional owners or say, "Sorry, they were donated to the Church, the C.O."

Is there a statute of limitations on ownership here? DaveJ775, ASM. Thanks for your responses.

[NJCubScouter]

Bob, can you cite some BSA document for your position on "Scout accounts?" Because (and I'll go out on a limb here) it seems to me that as a matter of basic contract law, you are incorrect.

 

Let's assume the "Scout accounts" are not kept in individual bank accounts. You are probably correct that that would be rare, if not unheard of. I certainly have never heard of it. Because of the small amounts in many of the accounts, the fees charged by the bank would eat up the accounts, unless the bank gave some special arrangements.

 

So let's assume that it is done the way it is done in my son's troop: All the money is kept in the troop's checking account. The name and amount of each individual boy's account is evidenced by a line in the troop's monthly financial records, or as you termed it Bob, a "budget." However it is done, the troop has some record on some piece of paper or some computer file of who earned how much money. Do you know the basic difference between these records and the records kept by your bank of how much money is in your real-life, official, bank account? I'll tell you: There really is no difference. The bank does not keep your money in a separate pile. Your "bank account" is not really money. It is a record of how much the bank has to pay you upon demand, out of the big pile of money they have assembled from everybody's little pile, and of course their big pile is really mostly just on paper also. What your bank account really is is a debt the bank owes you. "Account" is just a specialized term for a particular type of debt. I think the same is true with the "Scout account." It is really a debt that the unit owes to the Scout. The fact that there is a lower level of formality in the record-keeping than exists with a bank account is irrelevant.

 

Now, if it should come to pass that the CO takes physical custody of the funds of the unit, they take it subject to the debts owed by the unit. That includes the money in each Scout's account, or in other words, the money owed to each Scout.

 

In thinking about this, I realized something else. Why is this money owed to the Scout? Is it a gift? No, not usually. The unit adopts a policy saying that if a Scout sells X amount of whatever, they will "earn" Y percent of the profit for their "Scout account." Often the policy will say that the money can only be used for certain purposes. The policy may or may not be in writing, but that does not change the fundamental nature of what happens when the Scout goes out and sells Whatever and hands the proper amount back in to the troop treasurer. And what is it that happens? Glad you asked. A contract is created. The Scout was told, do this and you will get this amount of money. The Scout did it. He is entitled to the money, maybe for a particular purpose, maybe not, depending on the policy.

 

The Scout is owed a contractually created debt. If the CO decides to take over the funds from which that contractually created debt is to be paid, it is now the CO that owes the money.

 

If I were one of the parents of Scouts whose funds were being held by the CO, with all demands for payment refused, I would seriously consider hauling the CO into small claims court, or whatever the equivalent is in the relevant state. Maybe there is a lawyer among the parents. Actually, what I would do first would be to call the CR and tell him/her that my next phone call will be to the local newspaper, and if that didn't work, then to the court. Depending on what the CO is, I suspect that first phone call to the CR might free up those funds real fast.

 

Can you prove I am wrong, Bob? Because if the normal principles of contract law apply here, I am pretty sure I am right.

 

[dan]

NJCubScouter

Did the CO or the COR agree to the scouts accounts?

Or is it something the troop thought up without input from the CO. Which would put a major flaw in your case, wouldn't it?

It sounds like most CO are just paper owners, which it seems most posters are alluding to on this forum.

 

Davej775

They donated the equipment it is not theirs to take back.

[EagleInKY]

Jersey - I think you're correct. However, I know some troops have a "policy" that says the money is to be used for such and such, and that it is not payable to the boy if he leaves or drops out. In those cases, it is absorbed back into the unit account. I'm not sure how that plays into this.

 

DaveJ - In our inventory, we identify items that are "donated" as compared to items that are "borrowed". "Borrowed" items are not technically part of the inventory (i.e. they show no value on the ledger), but are easily identifyable as something that someone wants back. If the parents are coming back to claim their "donated" items, then it's too late, in my opinion.

[Bob White]

Sure NJ

 

First,

Scout accounts are not a scouting method nor a scouting program element, nor a BSA invention, so if you are looking for it in a scouting resource it is not there.

 

Next,

In every bank account I have ever had the bank and I had a signed agreement. We agreed that the money I put in was mine. We had a written agreement on how that money could be taken out.

 

The troop has no such agreement. The money going in was never the scout's money it was always troop money. There was never an agreement that the scout owned the money, only offer on how a portion of the troops money could be used by the scout.

 

Would I ever keep a scouts money if he was using in manner agreed to. Never.

 

Is the money earmarked for scout use, yes.

 

Does the money "belong" to the scout? Not until it is handed to him and he takes ownership of it.

 

 

 

 

[Eamonn]

I go to mass and make my donation.

Sometime later the church or the priest does something that I don't like.

Do I get a "Refund"?

No of course not. When you donate you give up ownership. Whatever it is that you give is no longer yours. You didn't loan it you gave it of your own free will.

As has been pointed out the Scout unit is owned by the chartered organization, so when you donate to the Scout unit,you are in fact donating to the Charter Organization. Just as part of the cash that I put in the plate at Mass on Sunday might end up in the coffers of the Diocese.

Eamonn

[pdunbar]

Bob White

 

Is not a verbal contract just as legal as a verbal one?

 

Also, just out of curiosity, if you had a special needs scout and he was working on the hiking merit badge and fulfilled all requirements but on the hikes only did half the distance, knowing that for every oe step you took he had to take two, would you give him the merit badge?

 

Everyone

 

If the old chartered organization now has no charter, where do all the funds go?

[evmori]

NJ is correct. Since the Scout accounts are noted by the Troop treasurer by the Scout name & amount then they do belong to that Scout. And since the issue is about moving CO's & the old CO's absconding with the Troop funds, then yes it is the Scouts. By the old CO keeping the funds in the Troop account, they are in essence stealing this money. It isn't theirs. Their charter doesn't state they own the funds.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Pdunbar,

Not trying to be flippant but it would be easir if you attended training than trying to get trained through this or any other forum.

 

The BSA allows any scout who needs an advancement variation to apply for such, through specifc channels and methods that are discussed in leader training and outlined in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual.

 

When a CO drops its charter the local DE steps in and meets with the CO Institution head to work out a plan for one of these things to happen

1 the unit to be re-formed

2 assets to be redonated to a different scout unit

3 assets to be used by the CO for a different youth centered program that it sponsors