Problems with Charter Organization

[Bob White]

pdunbar

Since I do not have my copy of the Advancement Policies at this time I called the person I lent that to and found I was in wrong on a portion of what I shared.

 

Advancement options are available as was stated and they do require a doctors verification as was stated, and the conditions of the merit badge requirements must be met (no more and no less), as was stated. And the exceptions are handled on a case by case situation as was stated.

 

Where I was mistaken was that requirements within the badge could be altered. What happens is an alternate merit badge is approved by the national advancement committee. The conditions for this are outlined in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual.

 

By case by case I mean that if national approves an alternate MB for one scout does not mean you can assume that the same decision will be made for another.

 

I am unsure what reply you want me to comment on. if it was one from FOG please remember that I, as well as some other posters, do not read his posts. I will be happy to reply to any questions you want to ask me however.

[pdunbar]

Bob White

 

I was reading all of the posts and one of yours may be incorrect. Scout accounts although not part of official BSA policy are indeed a part of many units functioning operations. I would find it impossible to rsise funds for an activity such as National Jamboree or a Philmont outing without maintaining individual scout accounts.. And all of our Eagle Scout know quite about finances having completed the Personal Management Meirt Badge.

[EagleInKY]

I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. The clause that Scoutldr posted, like most legal mumbo-jumbo, confuses me.

(b) Unit Obligations. In the event of the dissolution of a unit or the revocation or lapse of its charter, the unit committee shall apply unit funds and property to the payment of unit obligations and shall turn over the surplus, if any, to the local council, if there is one, or if there is no local ocuncil, dispose of the same in accordance with the direction of the Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America. In the case of a chartered organization, any funds or equipment which may have been secured as property of the unit shall be held in trust by the chartering organizaiton or the chartered local council, as may be agreed upon, pending reorganization of the unit or for the promotion of the program of the Boy Scouts of America.

In this paragraph, it talks of two things, units and chartered organizations:

 

Units - it appears that after the unit committee has paid all debts, the money goes to the council, or is disposed of in accordance with the BSA Exec Board.

Chartered Organizations - it says that funds & equipment are to be held by the chartering organization pending reorganization of the unit or promotion of the BSA program.

Aren't all of our units "chartered organizations"?  If so, it seems that the funds to remain with the church, as my DE had suggested.  Are there any legal eagles out there that can explain the difference between "unit" and "chartered organizations"?  Am I reading this all wrong?

[pdunbar]

BOB WHite

 

It had to do with scthe money in scout's accounts. You said that there are no0 such things in Official BSA policy. I agree with that statement, but it sounded like you were implying that they don't exist.

[Fat Old Guy]

"You said that there are no0 such things in Official BSA policy. I agree with that statement, but it sounded like you were implying that they don't exist."

 

Please remember that to Bobo Blanco if something isn't written up in Official BSA manuals, it doesn't exist.

 

 

[FScouter]

EagleInKY - There may be different reasons why a unit ceases to exist. The boys and adult leaders may pull up stakes and move across town. Or, the boys and adult leaders may drift away until there is nothing left except the chartered organization. I take that passage to mean that if the unit has possession of the money or equipment, they must turn it over to the council. If the chartered organization has possession of the money or equipment, they must hold on to it until they organize another unit, or otherwise use it for the benefit of Scouting.

 

The unit is the boys, adult leaders, and committee. The chartered organization is the church or community group that has a charter agreement with BSA to operate a unit as part of their youth program.

 

I suspect that the big reason that the official rules and regulations are not widely distributed is because they are not easy to read. And because most of the material in them has already been re-written into other commonly available publications.

[Bob White]

Pdunbar

 

The question was asked of what BSA policies say about personal accounts and I replied that personal accounts are not covered by BSA policies since they are not a part of the official BSA program. I never said they did not exist. Just that they are not a method or design of the BSA program.

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

While I do not have time to get into all the implications of the passages from the BSA Rules and Regulations that Scoutldr has posted, they certainly indicate that the idea that "the CO owns everything" -- promoted by BobWhite and others -- is incorrect. In legal terms, they may have legal ownership, but as to all or part of the funds they may not have "beneficial ownership," which means that while they may be entitled to have it, they aren't necessarily entitled to keep it. Hopefully, the Scout accounts would fall into the latter category.

 

Dan did point out one thing that I might have overlooked in my on-the-spot "legal analysis." If the boys who are "moving" to another CO with the unit are deemed to have "quit" the old unit, and if the policies governing Scout accounts in the old unit say that a boy who quits loses forfeits his account, then the old CO might have a good argument. At least, a good legal argument. But as far as what is "right and wrong," obviously the CO should release those funds to the new CO. Even apart from the Scout accounts, if the old CO is not going to "revive" the unit with new leaders and boys, the old CO should sit down with the DE and the unit leaders and arrive at a compromise on releasing at least a portion of the troop funds and equipment to the new CO for use by the "traveling" unit. That was one of the options mentioned by BobWhite, so it should make everybody happy.

 

[KoreaScouter]

Perhaps one of the things causing confusion over Scout Accounts, and whose idea they are, is the fact that the ability to apportion proceeds from fund-raisers to individual Scouts based on their effort/contribution is embedded in all the Pack/Troop management software programs I'm aware of. And, in Scouter, and Boy's Life, and on my Council Scout Store shelves, these programs are promoted and sold to units, right next to the official Troop Record Book. Hence, many volunteers consider Scout Accounts to be "official", like the mess kit, because they bought the program at the Scout Store. In a utopian world where everybody's trained and has 360-degree SA, we'd all be able to split this hair, effortlessly. This ain't utopia.

 

I've had "indifferent" or "aloof" relationships with COs in the past, but never a hostile one. I take my hat off to anyone who can deal with that and keep it transparent to the lads at the same time...

 

KS

[Bob White]

From page 11-4 of te Cub Scout Leader Book under the subheading Ownership of Assets

 

" The unit committee is the custodian of all unit funds, with the supervision and advisement of the chartered organization and the local council."

[pdunbar]

Bob White

 

What is the point of your last post....The unit committee is custodial in regards to troop funds, ultimately the troop committee is under control of the CO. Therefore the fund arte ultimately controlled by the CO. It may be interesting to note that in an ideal troop guidance is given from the onset by the CO, but in our case, our CO was merely on paper except for the CR that became involved with the troop. Unfortunately this CR was out of control, and after communicating with the CO executive and not having a positive response we were forcrd to move on. We will charter with the original founders of out troop. Just before I joined the troop 7 years ago, the committee elected to seek a new CO based on finacial reasons. ( Local paper mill would contribute only to certain CO's based on tax exempt status) We are very glad to being going back to the original CO. Today, we found out that all money and equipment will be turned over to the Nnew CO.

[Bob White]

pdunbar, my point was simply to share a quote from the cub handbook that related to the conversation.

[NJCubScouter]

Bob, I noticed something about your quotation from the Cub Scout Leader Book. The section may be headed "Ownership of Assets," and yet the text you quoted says who is the custodian of the funds, and who supervises the custodian and who advises the custodian, but says nothing at all about ownership. Are you implying that supervision of the custodian equals ownership of the assets? If that were the case, the passage would mean that the CO and the council co-own everything. That doesn't seem correct. So what does it all really mean?

[Bob White]

NJ are you honestly a lawyer? If you read my post you had to have noticed that I did not "imply" anything. I simply quoted a passage from a BSA resource that pertained to the topic.

 

How do get that I implied anything from that?

 

By th way does the CO and the council "basically" co-own everything? Yes.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

The unit funds belong to the unit not the CO. And if a unit dissolves the unpaid bills are paid & the rest of the money belongs to the council. The gear if not owned by an individual stays with the CO.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)