Judge rules US justice dept. can't weigh in on Scout lease case

[Fat Old Guy]

"The problem with separation of church and state is that you can't separate the state from only those religious groups you don't like--it's really all or none."

 

I'm still trying to find where the founding fathers included "separation of church and state" in any official document.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

The same place the constitution says "separation of powers" and "right to a fair trial"; it doesn't use any of those phrases, but they describe what the constitution says.

[Fat Old Guy]

Last time that I checked, those items were spelled out much more clearly than the so called "separation of church and state."

 

I'd be willing to bet a cookie that you think that there's no Constitutional guarantee for individual ownership of arms. Am I right?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

As long as you're part of a state militia (New York still has one). I agree with most SC opinions on both the first and second amendments; you don't seem to. Too bad for you, I guess.

[evmori]

Separation of church and state can't be found in the Constitution because it isn't in there! It is an interpretation (and a bad one) of the 1st Amendment.

 

Now back to my question that I posed to Merlyn that he obviously can't answer but I'll ask again anyway:

 

"By having articles written by atheists in their publications this shows the BSA is intolerant of atheists?"

 

And while I'm at it, why do you thing the DOJ filed their brief? Please answer the 1st question before this one. Thanks

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

No, ed, by publishing stories by Asimov, a well-known atheist, the BSA is demonstrating hypocrisy. The BSA shows its intolerance of atheists by excluding them, by implying atheists can't be the best kinds of citizens, and by chartering their "no atheists" youth groups to government agencies which cannot lawfully exclude atheists.

[Fat Old Guy]

I don't know how well known Assimov was as an atheist because I've read nearly every book he wrote (I skipped the textbooks) as well as numerous articles by him and interviews with him but I never heard that he was an unbeliever until last year.

[evmori]

Ok the BSA is intolerant because they won't allow people to join who don't meet their joining requirements? Isn't that the same as you have to be a plumber to join the plumbers union? Aren't they being intolerant? And were/are atheists denied use of the area when the BSA wasn't/isn't using it? It seems to me, Merlyn, you are not applying the same rules to all situations here. And that, my fine misguided person, is also intolerance.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

It may be an exercise in futility, but I continue to believe that this issue can actually be discussed.

1. Does BSA discriminate against atheists? Yes, because they can't join.

2. Is BSA intolerant of atheists? No. Simply thinking you're right about something and that somebody else is wrong doesn't make you intolerant. Intolerance implies action to restrict, harm, or harass the other group. BSA doesn't do that--it simply restricts its membership to like-minded people, and that isn't intolerance. (If the Perry Como Fan Club requires you to sign a pledge that you love Perry in order to join, that isn't intolerant--just discriminatory.)

3. Is it intolerant to criticize BSA for excluding atheists? No. Again, disagreeing with somebody and saying so isn't intolerance. Of course, name-calling--on either side--suggests personal intolerance.

4. Is it discriminatory or intolerant to argue that BSA shouldn't receive government benefits (such as cheap leases or school sponsorship)? No--not if you consistently take the position that no religious organization (including organizations with religious viewpoints such as atheist organizations) should receive those benefits.

5. The above points apply as well to the BSA's position on gay leadership--especially if its position is based on religious grounds (which I guess it is). However, that issue has touched off more "intolerant" rhetoric and action on both sides. But if you step back, you can still have a rational discussion of the question, "What government benefits, if any, can be extended to a private organization with discriminatory membership requirements based on religious grounds?"

[evmori]

"What government benefits, if any, can be extended to a private organization with discriminatory membership requirements based on religious grounds?"

 

The same type that are extended to those organizations that don't discriminate based on religious grounds. The government gives money to private colleges that are way more religious based than the BSA.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

I'm not aware that the government gives any money to private religious-based colleges, aside from the student loans that go directly to students. Even those can be controversial, of course--students at Bob Jones University can't get those loans because of the school's prohibition of interacial dating (last I heard, anyway). The truth is, there aren't that many current cases of government benefits being extended to religious organizations--at least until the current administration's faith-based initiative. I suspect the reason that BSA has continued to receive such benefits is that the public doesn't think of it as a religious organization, and thus there hasn't been that much attention until recently.

[evmori]

Government funding is government funding regardless of the level. Government backed student loans or government grants to private religious based colleges are no different. If the government can't help the BSA because it's a religious (and it isn't) organization, then the government can't help religious based colleges.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[packsaddle]

Hey, don't stop there. Let's revoke the tax-exempt status for churches and other religious organizations as well. That's a government subsidy, right? Ed, we're on a roll here.

[evmori]

pack,

While I don't agree with the revocation of the tax exempt status for churches, you are correct! If it's wrong for one it's wrong for all!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[pdunbar]

Trail Pounder

 

You have got to be kidding!! 80% are homosexual!! I don't think so!! Don't equate homos with pedophiles. My philosophy will always be sexuality has no place in scouting. What a simplier organization we would be. If you didn't like it go form your own organiztion. Which you might just tell me to do! But the fight for equality must come from within. Our time will come!