Youth movement . . . or not?

[Hunt]

I don't think Scouting is a "youth movement." I don't think it's a movement at all, because it's an institution. The Dean campaign in its early days was a movement; the Democratic National Committee is an institution.

But what's wrong with the fact that Scouting isn't a youth movement?

Well, if it's no longer a movement, maybe it's no longer fresh, maybe it's out of touch with the passion that started it, etc. All probably true, but probably inevitable when a movement matures into an istitution--look at any religious denomination and you'll find the same thing. One advantage scouting has is the constant influx of new people to help renew it, on the local level anyway.

Is the complaint that it isn't run by the youth? Again, I don't think the kind of institution BSA has become could be run by the youth. It could, however, be more democratic. As Bob White might point out it, it isn't democratic, and isn't constituted to be democratic. That means it's resistant to change, for good and bad. I think one's position on whether it should be more democratic or not depends on whether you agree with the way the current leaders are doing things or not.

Finally, of course, scouting is run by the youth, because if they all quit, there's no movement, program, or institution.

[WHEELER]

In the Oxford English Dictionary, the definition of Program:

 1. A public notice.

2a. A descriptive notice, issued beforehand, of any formal series of proceedings, as a festive celebration, a course of study, etc,; a prospectus; in current use esp. a written or printed list of the 'pieces', items, or 'numbers' of a concert or other public entertainment...

b. A definite plan or scheme of any intended proceedings; an outline or abstract of something to be done (whether in writing or not). Also, a planned series of activities.

h. Psychol. and Educ.  In human and animal learning, a series of step-by-step questions or tests (freq. designed to be used in a teaching machine operated by the learner.) aimed at the establishment of learning patterns through the stimulus of rewarding correct responses or behavior at each step.

The rest dealth with computers or music.

The Boy Scouts is definitly a "movement" and not a "program".

Second to Mr. Hunt's premise that anything but democracy is resistant to change is horse puckie.  The military changes all the time in tactics, gear, strategies and so forth and it is not a democracy.  "Resistance to change" is code for progressivism.

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

I'm not sure that the trend of this forum in becoming DictionaryDebate.com is necessarily the best thing, but since this one is squarely Scouting-related, I'll play this time.

 

First of all, what is "Scouting?" There is a World Organization of the Scout Movement that I believe includes both the BSA and GSUSA, as well as (obviously) Boy and Girl Scout and coed Scouting organizations from all over the world. At the worldwide level, the only one that officially uses the word "movement" to my knowledge, I think "movement" is at least partially accurate. There also is an "organization" there, but it really does not provide a "program," as we think of a Scouting program. (For what it does do, see www.scout.org.) The "program" is provided by the national Scouting organizations.

 

Leaving aside the other U.S. "Scouting" organization, the GSUSA (but with the greatest respect), is the BSA a movement? It really looks more like a national organization providing a program, through a rather unique arrangement with other organizations (the CO's.) I have heard the statement that "Scouting is not an organization, it's a movement." (And now I have heard that B-P said it's not a program, its a movement, though I think B-P was using a bit of "poetic license" there.) But there can be no doubt that there is a program, and that there is an organization consisting of at least "National" and its subordinate "levels," and (for purposes of this discussion at least) the councils. That organization offers the program to COs who may form units based on a charter agreement with the BSA, which requires them to follow rules, regulations, press releases (oops, sorry), etc. Because of the sort of unique three-way arrangement between National/council, CO and unit, one might say that the units are not really "part" of a single organization with National at the top of the pyramid, such as might exist with an Elks or Moose Lodge or something like that, which have more "typical" hierarchical structures. Because of that, there is at least an element of "movement" when one looks at "Scouting" as a unified whole. But I think that the "organization" and "program" elements are predominant over the "movement" aspect.

 

Now as for "Scouting" being a "youth movement," there I have to agree with FOG. It was not initiated by youths, and on a

worldwide, national or council level, it is run by adults, not youths. So it is not a "youth movement." The BSA does have some (two out of three, or three out of four if you count Varsity) major program divisions that use "youth leadership" as one of their methods, in other words, as part of the "program." This manifests itself in boy-run (or boy-led) Boy Scout troops and youth-run (or youth-led Venturing Crews), which are critical elements in providing the program the way it is supposed to be provided, with a tip of the campaign hat to what B-P said as OGE posted in the other thread. But "Scouting" also includes Cub Scout packs, where youth leadership is not a method, because it is not age-appropriate (or in modern lingo, developmentally appropriate.) (One could quibble about this a little bit; preparing a boy for Boy Scouts is one of the "purposes" of Cub Scouts, and I think Cub Scouting does instill an interest in leadership, by providing both adult and boy role-models for leadership (Den Chiefs being the boy role models); and then there is the "Denner" position that is sort of a junior counterpart to the "true" leadership roles a boy can aspire to after becoming a Boy Scout. But "leadership" per se is not a Cub Scouting method and, clearly, packs are not boy-run, though on a bad day a pack meeting may seem boy-overrun.)

 

So that's my take. I don't think that "youth movement" is a correct term for Scouting. And as if to agree with me, the brochure from my council that I discussed in another thread calls Scouting "one of the largest youth-serving organizations in the country." That description seems more accurate.

[VentureScoutNY]

I believe Scouting is a youth movement, but it cannot be run by the youth. It has programs in it. It is a movement organized by a organization. Boys ages 11-18 do run the movement by being apart of it. If they were not in it, we would have no movement. The adults structure it, organize it and pave the way for the next generation to continue it. The boys can not do the adults job, in todays world there is no room for boys to control it. That's like asking can boys run our government? Or can they run GM, or Microsoft? No. In Scouting the adults ( most of them former scouts themselves ) know and understand how the movement should be run. That's why they do what they do.

 

I agree in what Wheeler says:

"Let's not forget the principle, "YOU ARE WHAT YOU FOLLOW". If boys did all the leading, then the boys remain boys. But if the Scoutmaster was there, then the boys become men. You are what you follow!!!!!

 

Scoutmasters burn the trail. Boys follow and become their Scoutmaster. IT IS SIMPLE LOGIC!!!!"

 

VentureScoutNY

[evmori]

I do have to agree with YOU ARE WHAT YOU FOLLOW.

 

Other than that, reading Wheeler's drivel make me need to take a movement!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[WHEELER]

Are we all sure that it is a movement???

 

Can we let this dog rest Or is there still some discrepancy out there about the meaning of movement?

 

I do have a question. How does somebody take the leap that if it is called a "youth movement" that only the youth run it?????

 

Now employing the Socratic method to the above opinion, if it is called the "Oxford movement" does this mean that only people named "Oxford" get to run it?

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

Well, I did refrain from responding to Wheeler for awhile, but this seems to be a direct response to a direct statement that I made. (Though obviously I was not the first to suggest in this thread that "youth movement" means "youth-led," FOG was.)

 

So, Wheeler says:

 

I do have a question. How does somebody take the leap that if it is called a "youth movement" that only the youth run it?????

 

Now employing the Socratic method to the above opinion, if it is called the "Oxford movement" does this mean that only people named "Oxford" get to run it?

 

 

First of all, I don't think I or anyone else said "only." But I do think "youth movement" implies at least predominantly youth-run. I don't think it's a leap. It's how people talk, and write. The name of a certain type of people in front of the word "movement" means a "movement" by that type of people. If what proceeds "movement" is something other than a type of people, it would mean something different. If it's an "ideology," such as "women's rights movement" or "Zionist movement," then it implies a movement in favor of that ideology, and leadership by those who favor that ideology, regardless of whether they are members of the group that would "benefit." But if, instead of "women's rights movement," it were just "women's movement," that would imply leadership by women.

 

I don't know what an "Oxford movement" is or was, so I can't answer that one, but "Oxford" does not sound like the name of a type of people, so it doesn't fit the pattern and is therefore irrelevant to the discussion.

 

And, as for "Are we all sure that it is a movement???"... well, no, I think some of us didn't think it is. I said that I don't think it is, at least not on the national level and below, which are the levels where the vast majority of us actually have routine contact with it. (As opposed to the worldwide level.)

 

[WHEELER]

Definition of movement: The action or process of moving; change of position; passage from place to place or from situation to another. This is the very first definition from the Oxford Dictionary.

 

 

 

There is sixth definition defined thus: "A course or series of actions and endeavours on the part of a body of persons, moving or tending more or less continuously towards some special end. Often with defining word prefixed, as in the OXFORD movement (exaclty as it is written in the dictionary."

 

The Oxford movement was started in 1833 to renew the Church of England by a revival of Catholic doctrine and practise.

 

It finally failed because Liberals had control of the Church and many Anglican church leaders left and became Roman Catholics.

 

Nothing in the definition is about who leads. It is about movement. When it is said "youth movement", it means when youth are moved from one thing to another.

 

Again, Boys are the material cause, they cannot be also the effecient cause. NJCubScouter, you are making a philosophical error. It is impossible for the material cause to be also the effecient cause. There is NOTHING IN the definition that says whatever precedes it runs it.

 

This sixth definition is the key. Of course the Boy Scouts is a movement. The Boy Scouts is about "moving" from one position to another position. It is perfect. Boys do not remain Boys; they change into something. Boys change into men. So it is the Boy Scout movement.

 

Because as originally envisioned as a process of moving boys to manhood. Manhood as being "some special end".

 

If it is as alot opine as a place for fun and games then the Boy Scouts are a program as mentioned in the mission and vision statements and in the modern Handbook. But if the original intent was to MOVE boys to MANHOOD, THEN IT IS A MOVEMENT.

 

 

[Fat Old Guy]

" There is a World Organization of the Scout Movement that I believe includes both the BSA and GSUSA, as well as (obviously) Boy and Girl Scout"

 

GSUSA belongs to WAGGS, the World Association of Girl Guides and Scouts, in the rest of the world Girl Scouts are Girl Guides. In some countries Boy Scouts and Girl Guides have merges, which is indicated by the trefoil overlaid on the fleru de lys. In many other countries, Boy Scouts have gone co-ed but Girl Guiding continues as a separate program

(This message has been edited by Fat Old Guy)

[NJCubScouter]

OK, FOG, I stand corrected. I did not know there was a separate world organization for Girl Scouts/Guides. (Notice when I made the statement I said "I believe," that's my way of saying nobody can pick on me too much if I'm wrong. )

[NJCubScouter]

Wheeler, in an effort to get back to the spirit (if not the letter) of my previous declaration of independence from your fantasy world, I will try to keep this brief.

 

But before I get to the main point: While you accuse me of making a "philosophical error," your posts taken together demonstrate just about every logical fallacy in the book. I think I know a little bit about debating and how logic can be used and misused. I have seen every trick in the book, and maybe I have used a couple myself (when I was getting paid to.) While you have been leisurely reading philosophy and spending endless hours in Socratic discussions with your monk friends, I argue for a living. I have had logical fallacies thrown at me by other attorneys while we were both standing in front of a judge, and after about 10 seconds' thought have had to convince the judge that I was right and the other person was wrong. Sometimes the thrower has been the judge. Sometimes the thrower has been three judges. (I haven't always won, by the way, but as someone else posted Teddy Roosevelt's famous quote, I have been "in the arena," and I like to think I have "dared greatly.")

 

So don't try to lecture me about logic.

 

Now to the "brief" part.

 

What you have done in this latest post is to take two different definitions of "movement" from the dictionary and jumbled them together, to the point where your resulting definition of "youth movement" more closely resembles a school bus than than the Boy Scouts of America. Everybody else who has used the word "movement" to describe Scouting has used what you cite as the sixth definition, or something resembling it -- and that includes B-P, though I have seen no suggestion that he called Scouting a "youth movement" as opposed to a "movement." As to the "youth" in "youth movement" meaning that it would have to be either initiated or primarily led by youth, I stand by what I said. If the adjective before "movement" is a group of people, then the phrase means a movement initiated or primarly led by that group of people. If the adjective is something else (like "Oxford") it is off the point, though actually "Oxford movement" (now that I have looked it up on the Internet), if it is relevant at all, supports my point, because the Oxford movement started at Oxford, was organized from Oxford, and therefore was initiated by people from Oxford, even if leadership eventually passed to others (and I saw no indication that it did or didn't; like much British writing, the web sites I found seem to assume that the reader already knows about the subject he/she is trying to learn about.)

 

Nobody else I know, besides you Wheeler, would say that a "youth movement" is something that "moves youth." As I said, what you have described is a school bus. A "youth movement" is a "movement," meaning an effort or campaign, initiated or led by youth.

[NJCubScouter]

I just re-read my last post above, and I want to apologize to everyone -- except Wheeler -- for the part about my debating abilities and experience in court. It sort of comes across as bragging, and I do try to keep my "professional credentials" out of the forum. Wheeler needed it, though.

[Marty_Doyle]

I have always viewed people like trial lawyers and heart surgeons as so self confident about their abilities that they can appear arrogant. It might even be a pre-requisite. And to a certain extent, their personality dictates their choice of employment (or maybe it's vice versa). So, that's where I chalked that part of your post up to. No apology really necessary.

 

[scoutingagain]

As noted elsewher, If it's a fact, it ain't braggin.

 

 

SA

[Fat Old Guy]

New Jersey Dude said, "Notice when I made the statement I said "I believe," that's my way of saying nobody can pick on me too much if I'm wrong."

 

Yep, do that myself.