l948 Handbook Compared to l998

[WHEELER]

Yes, I saw that picture too. There is no such thing as "World Citizenship" because the world is not a single state. The BSA has mixed two incompatible predicates in a subject. One subject is the training of boys to be men and the other subject is the leftist, unisexism of the United Nations. This is an oxymoron.

 

But to get back on thread. The l948 manual GUSHES with enthusiasm for men, for manhood. One can not say the same for the modern handbook. It is almost afraid to say the word "man". As I have said, It looks like the BSA program has accepted the language of hate toward men and boys in its literature. The proof is in the pudding.

 

 

[RobK]

While Wheeler's style may leave something to be desired, he does have a point. The BSA doesn't emphasize becoming a man like it used to. Reading the latest handbook, I didn't even get the feeling that they were trying to emphasize growing into an adult that much. The older books did have a feeling of "doing these things will help you develop into the best kind of man and that's great!", while the new book has more of feel of "someday you'll be an adult, but while you're waiting here's some fun stuff."

 

Wheeler's style of demonstrating the point may stink, but that doesn't invalidate the point.

 

 

[Marty_Doyle]

Do manly men, except when talking about oil wells or bleeding wounds, ever use the word "GUSHES"?

[WHEELER]

Good point Marty. Should I have used the word "oozes" instead.

 

Maybe the correct word is "emphasis". The "umph" has gone out. Maybe we need to start looking at restoring the "umph" of the message of Boy Scouting.

 

If one is not enthusiastic about winning, one might just lose.

If we are not enthusiastic about manhood, then boys will not be enthusiastic either.

 

The older handbook has an enthusiasm that the modern has dropped.

 

[willysjeep]

I have to say someting here. My grandmother gave me an old beat up copy of the 1948 handbook when I was 5 years old. It was my first exposure to scouting, and I was hooked. I'm just about 20 now and my grand illusion of how scouting is has been almost totally shattered. Reading the old handbooks time and time again kind of set me up for some sort of norman rockwell-esq scouting experience. The newest two handbooks which I used as a scout allways seemed lacking in some areas. Scouting as a whole has changed a lot since 1948 and I don't think allways for the better. Yet still, I am a slave to the notions that I grew up with and it pains me so much that no matter how hard I try and how much I want it scouting will never be all what I had thought. There are too many politicians and not enough outdoorsmen leading troops. I for one think it's time for a change. Unfortunately the people who made scouting "better" can't admit that it isn't better, and they don't want anybody to change their changes. They can call somebody wrong, but they can't stand to be called wrong themselves. I don't think I could ever get the program to change by myself, and I don't know if there are a lot more people who think like me out there, so for now I am stuck just dreaming I guess.

[OldGreyEagle]

What would you like to do to change the program? Wht are your thoughts?

[willysjeep]

A lot of my complaints apply to my troop more than to scouting in general. Even within my troop though I often wonder if it is worth stirring things up just to try to get some little change made.

 

 

Some of my complaints stem from the general attitude that I seem to get from the program. It seems like the focous has switched from being masculine and outdoors oriented to being politically correct and neutral and inoffensive even if it means stifling useful information.

 

Personally, in my troop, I would like to see more sensible leadership with less emotional crybaby adults and wannabee drill sargents. My troop is terribly political. If you don't please the right people you won't go far. If my troop were to be fixed this might lead to my whole point of view changing.

 

I would like to see less monkeying around with the uniforms and lower costs so scouts could be in uniform on camping trips. I would also like to see more of a focous put back on looking like a scout, not like a kid in some shirt with patches. The uniform is more than the shirt. This isn't something that any policy or rule could change, it's just the attitude of the scouts today.

 

I would like to see more descretion left to the troop leadership in regards to safety. Every rule in scouting has to apply equally to 11 and 18 year olds, and often they are overly cautious for many real world situations. Of course again, the adult leadership is responsible for implementing these rules fairly.

 

Changes within my troop would definantly make things better. Still, mabey it's unfair of me to complain about the whole program just because it isn't exactly like it was in 1948.

[SR540Beaver]

Willy,

 

Nothing is stopping you from starting a new troop. Scouting always needs new growth. Give the boys in your town an alternative. Competition is a good thing. One of my Woodbadge patrol members had some major problems in his son's troop. He addressed them and was shut down. So he decided to take his son and placed ads in the local newspaper seeking boys who wanted to join the Boy Scouts. He didn't "steal" from his old troop. When he got the required five boys, he started a new troop. He is a super guy and a great scouter. I have no doubt that his troop will surpass the old troop in short order.

 

But, keep in mind that G2SS is not optional. If you are urging your unit to ignore BSA policy, you are in the wrong. Much of the safety factor is a direct results of people's willingness to sue anybody for anything these days. When you can retire on a settlement for spilling your own cup of McDonald's hot coffee in your own lap, it is only prudent to protect yourself with safety rules. Can you imagine how long BSA would exist if they got sued everytime a Scoutmaster allowed kids to climb and rappel without helmets, proper equipment or training and the kid got hurt? The rules exist to protect Scouting as much as it does to protect the boys.

[willysjeep]

true about the G2SS. No matter what when you set a rule in stone some people are bound to think it is too strict and some people are bound to think it's not strict enough. Beyond that though some people make up their own safety guidelines. Like I actually got a "talking to" for slicing an apple and eating it with a completely dull butter knife from one leader in my troop. You know, take a slice of apple and pop it in your mouth. "If somebody bumps your elbow you could get cut with that knife" the man said. I guess this guy must think forks are dangerous to put near your mouth too.

 

But anyways, I guess I just see some of the rules as a little overbearing. Not that I break them (I still remember the stuff about a good scout not breaking unfair rules but seeking to get them changed through the proper channel).

 

I am actually considering switching troops. There is certainly no shortage of adults in my home troop. There are plenty of established troops though in the next town over. I wouldn't mind driving ten minutes to be with a group of scouters who are more pleasant to be around. Actually, some pretty good older scouts are switching into my current troop from another area. I think I will stick around and see if they are enough to get my troop to change for the better. If not, there are plenty of people in other troops I have gotten to know through summer camp and district events. Might as well go experience some other troops and see if there's something better out there.

 

 

[Davej775]

This is an interesting thread! I hardly ever come here, having arrived, I'm jumping in. Wheeler says it for me. My specific observation is the uniform as BP invisioned it, 'used military uniforms that are cheap and wear well. The Scout hat is certainly the Campaign hat of the Doughboys, WWl.

I have before brought up the fact that my current uniform without badges etc, designed by Ralph Lauren( at what great cost, I wonder) looks almost exactly like my USMC dress uniform I wore daily, while working in HQ CO. Camp Lejeune. It was designed to get away from the military image?

I also learned to march in file and rank as a boy Scout in the 50's. It was FUN! We marched in parades in town and I loved even wearing the spats, and bloused trowsers. In the field spats are extremely valuable considering ticks, spiders, crawly things of all sorts. Too bad, not available today; and that marching is out of the program, I read somewhere, here on the forum. Why is the Military being dismissed? I see it erode away quietly, just as Wheeler has seen other aspects fade away. The Scouts was about making boys into men with leadership skills, strong faith, and be able to think for themselves. What Wheeler has discovered is that that isn't necessarily so today. One of the results of this situation is the growing of other Scouting Programs, Which I also read about here on the forum. This new program, not our BSA, as we know it, will be the future, I believe and encourage for boys to learn how to be men. Davej!

[Bob White]

If you have a scout uniform designed by Ralph Lauren it is a rare one indeed, handle it carefully, it's a collector's item. Everyone else's uniform was designed by Oscar de la Rente.

 

"it was designed to get away from the military image" No, it was designed to be different from the previous uniform, be more appealing to the youth of that day, and be inexpensive to adapt to various programs simply by changing the color designation of the shoulder loops.

 

Scout troops got their name from the military, the troop colors are based on the old cavalry flags, the uniforms have a military flavor, the National Jamboree's permanent home is on a military base. Nearly every military base in the world that has families on it have scouting. An Eagle Scout gets an immediate promotion and pay raise on completion of basic training in every branch of the armed forces. 70% of graduates from US military academies were scouts. And you think that we have a weakening relationship because ...why? We don't in parades.

 

I was a scout in the early sixties and we hiked in parades. Our Scoutmaster a retired Navy man said soldiers march, Scouts hike. So if you think not marching is some new affectation you are incorrect.

 

The current uniform is different from the one we wore in the 60s and 70s, and that one was different from the one my grandfather wore as a Scoutmaster in the 20s. He didn't think the uniform would never change, why do some people act like this is the last version of the uniform we will ever have? It will change and when it does some will like it and some won't.

 

If anyone has a design for a Scout uniform that they believe will please 6 million people from every social, educational, economic, and professional background possible, please send it to the national office. I'm sure they will be interested.

 

And Dave, "your BSA" of the 50s was nothing like Baden-Powell's Boy Scouts of 1907, or the BSA of the 1930s, and yet you enjoyed it. That's because it changed to respond to the youth of your day, just as it continues to respond to the needs and characteristics of today's scouts.

 

Bob White

 

 

[VentureScoutNY]

Dave:

 

You have a Scout Uniform designed by Ralph Lauren? Can you Provide for us a picture of it? What does it look like? Is it a BSA Uniform?

[Rooster7]

I was a scout in the early sixties and we hiked in parades. Our Scoutmaster a retired Navy man said soldiers march, Scouts hike. So if you think not marching is some new affectation you are incorrect.

 

Sorry to join this late...

 

Is there a BSA policy against Scouts marching in a parade? If so, why?

 

[Rooster7]

I was a scout in the early sixties and we hiked in parades. Our Scoutmaster a retired Navy man said soldiers march, Scouts hike. So if you think not marching is some new affectation you are incorrect.

 

Sorry to join this late...

 

Is there a BSA policy against Scouts marching in a parade? If so, why?

 

[Bob White]

None that I know of. It's not that scouts can't choose to march, but that doesn't mean they can't or that they should, and it certainly isn't a sign of weakness in the program.