It's not as popular as some think

[Bob White]

To my knowledge during Baden-Powells lifetime there were no homosexual activists movements making an organized attempt to gain membership into the UK Boy Scout movement.

 

In fact up until the early 70s individuals homosexual preferences in the US were not fodder for the media. Until the late 1990s no one attempted to be present homosexuality to families as a rich and wholesome lifestyle to be exemplified to children.

 

So luckily for Baden-Powell, it is not a subject he was forced to use his time and resources on, allowing him to focus on developing the program for the boys and not on the social/political demands of homosexuals.

[ASM59]

BW - No one HAS to belong to scouting. If you share scoutings values then you GET to be a member.

NJ - That assumes that the people currently making the rules are correct as to what "Scouting's values" are, and in this one case, I don't think that's true.

 

With all due respect, and as has already been posted, the BSA is a private organization. I agree with the position taken on these issues by the BSA, therefore I feel comfortable in the organization as a leader.

You (NJ & pdunbar) are free to leave and form a new private scouting organization whose membership guidelines include the admittance of gay leaders and scouts (good luck recruiting boys).

If you and others are successful in changing the position of the BSA on matters such as this, I would be forced to consider resigning my membership (principle, honor, integrity).

If I did so and formed a new scouting organization based on the old BSA guidelines, the new organization would only come under renewed attack from the like of you.

See a double standard here?

 

[pdunbar]

BobWHite

 

You make some very good points on your last post. I never felt that homosexuals should use scouting to their own advantage of advancing their lifestyle. I just think scouting should be asexual in nature. No ands or buts. If someone was homosexual and started preaching their lifestyle or even mentioning it, I would feel it to be appropiate to terminate them. Actually the CO could do that considering all the power that they control. Do you believe all gays are activists?

[Bob White]

I don't know every gay person so I am not about to say I believe every one is an activist.

Here is what I do believe.

I believe that the a private citizen or a private organization have a constitutionally protected right of free association.

 

And I believe that I wouldn't join, or remain in an organization if I didn't share their values.

 

 

[pdunbar]

I joined scouting when my 2 boys joined. Ihave raised my sons to be very tolerant of all paople. I have enver expressed those beliefs to the boys in the troop. My goal in scouting is to teach bous leadership skills through outdoor activities. My real problem with scouting and the gay issue is that it was not origianally an issue in scouting. I believe very conservative people pushed this issue on BSA. I feel every CO has the right to decide just how tolerate an unit will be. If your CO doesn't want any gay leaders that is fine by me. I live in the Northeast where many communities are a little more liberal in this regard. Why should we not decide our own fate. I meant why doesn't are own CO have the right to set their own standards. Mind you I have no problem if BSA's policy was sexuality has no place in scouting. I know that you have the best interest of your boys at heart. So do I! I just hate the idea that some eagle scout would be denied the opportunity to continuing working in scouts just because he is gay.

[Bob White]

Pdunbar,

Who you choose to allow to be role models in your home is your right to choose. Who the BSA allows to be a role model in their organization is their right to choose.

 

The BSA does not tell you that you have to let someone into your home. They are expecting the same respect and courtesy from you.

[NJCubScouter]

ASM56,

 

Thank you for pointing out that I am free to leave the BSA and form a new "scouting" organization. (I put "scouting" in quotes because as discussed in another recently active thread, if I used that word, the BSA would most likely sue me.) Since I see you are a new member of the forum, you may think you have come up with an original idea here. Actually, in the 2+ years I have been in this forum, about 20 different posters have suggested that I leave Scouting, or pointed out that I am free to leave, or have wondered why I don't leave, or have wondered why I stay, or some other variation on the theme, and some of these people have coupled their suggestion or wonderment or helpful pointing-out with the advice that I am free to form my own organization.

 

So, since you have been so helpful in pointing this out to me, I will be helpful in return and point out to you what I have pointed out to many of those who have preceded you: While I am free to leave, I also am free to stay. And that is what I choose to do. Is this a great country, or what?

 

And, while I am staying, I am also free to continue to criticize the BSA's policy and point out how it contradicts the true principles of Scouting. Well, at least, the anonymous Internet "me" is free to do so. I am not so sure that the actual real-live "me" is free to do so in the real-life context of my Scouting activities, and actually I have no desire to do that anyway, and I don't. My real-life Scouting activity is centered on my son and his troop-mates and I would never want to do anything that might jeopardize my ability to be a part of that.

 

Again, freedom, it's a great thing. What some people don't seem to understand, however, is that freedom isn't only for them and people who agree with them, it's for everybody. Even me.

[NJCubScouter]

It's funny how when BobWhite is talking to someone who disagrees with a BSA policy, the BSA is always a "they." Their organization, their right to choose, their house. I have a suspicion, however, that pdunbar regards the BSA not as a "they," but as "we." Just as I do. And funnily enough, Bob also refers to the BSA as "we", sometimes, when it suits his purposes of the moment.

[pdunbar]

BobWHite

 

Who is BSa? What forced them into making that policy anywhere!? Didn't the conservative right force the issue?

I know many divorced leaders. Are they ideal role models?

 

All of you

 

My answer to the last question is if they choose to be.

[Bob White]

Pdunbar, you referenced being Wood Badge trained in one post, and having seven years experience in the program. Who do you believe the BSA governing body is.

[Fat Old Guy]

" I just think scouting should be asexual in nature. No ands or buts. If someone was homosexual and started preaching their lifestyle or even mentioning it, I would feel it to be appropiate to terminate them."

 

Would you then prohibit normal, heterosexual people from mentioning their lifestyle? If the Scoutmaster says, "my wife and I went on a cruise . . ." would he be terminated? What if a young ASM announces, "Hey guys, I'm getting married!" would he get the boot?

 

 

[Bob White]

NJ

As a unit leader a BSA member is not a voting or administrative member of the BSA. They are responsible for delivering the BSA program within a chartering organization.

A Commissioner a volunteer is a commissioned representative of the official BSA.

As a trainer a volunteer has a responsibility to represent the official program, policies and methods of the BSA.

As a Chartering Organization Representative an individual is a voting member of the local district and council.

I wear the hats of both a program leader and a representative of the official program, and as a voting member of the District, as do others on this forum.

 

There are times I mean they, there are times I mean we. As far as I know I have never said MY program, or my unit, or my way, or my rule. Isn't that more important?

 

[Shell in WA- USA]

Funny, NJ Cub Scouter, you stated amoung other things "...Again, freedom, it's a great thing. What some people don't seem to understand, however, is that freedom isn't only for them and people who agree with them, it's for everybody. Even me. "

 

Shouldn't the Scouting program also have that "freedom" in providing a program for our youth based on the BS principals and policies of the oraganization? And those policies and requirements are not held in secret, each one of yes knew what we were signing up for and agreeing to as we signed the registration form. That's why we chose BSA to belong to, we agreed with those principals when signing the form. If you don't agree with their morals and value standards they set forth to follow, their policies, their standards or principals, or structure of the program, they don't twist your arm to join either. Why join? Find a group, club, organization you believe in and join that. Even the other side of the spectrum can operate, Klu Klux Klan ro some such group. That is what true freedom means in our great country! But I don't chose to join the KKK, I chose BSA!

 

Why must our values and morals be lowered to make all behavior acceptable? And we wonder why the world is "falling apart" morally?!?!

[evmori]

There are times I mean they, there are times I mean we. As far as I know I have never said MY program, or my unit, or my way, or my rule. Isn't that more important?

 

No it's not! What's wrong with saying MY unit or MY Troop or MY Patrol? Nothing. If one is a member of a unit using my is fine. Same as being a member of a church & referring to it as MY church.

 

BTW, this is MY post!

 

Happy Easter to all!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

NJ I am surprised that as a lawyer you think you have the right to stay in a private organization.

As you know, you do not. You are allowed to stay as long as you abide by the rules, or are maintained in membership by the CO. THe BSA or the CO can remove your membership at any time, just as they can do with any member. That is their right.

 

There is no such thing as the right of membership in the BSA. There are however responsibilities of membership. Taking membership policy disagreement to thr proper national comittee and personnel rather than through public disagreement or protest is a responsibility of membership. Violation of which can cause your membership in this private organization to be removed.

 

You law background should confirm that your right to free speech is no greater than or less than the BSA's right to free association and to choose its own members. You can protest this issue all you want from outside the BSA but that does not give you the right to retain membership.