Johnny-Go-Lately

[slontwovvy]

Recently, there has been one boy in the troop who leaves early Sunday morning from campouts, before takedown has started. He comes up with a different excuse each time, then leaves with his dad, getting out of all of the work. I wouldn't have a problem with this if it happened once or twice, but it has happened on six outings in the past year.

 

I think that this is a big deal, and should be addressed by talking to the Scout and possibly banning him from leaving early. Other leaders don't see this as a problem. Any other opinions on what should be done?

[evmori]

slont,

I agree this is a problem. What rank is this Scout? Are they leaving beacuse they want to attend church? If so, I don't know if you have any recourse. Is it the Scout who wants to leave or the dad? Think these questions need answered before you can determine a course of action.

 

If it turns out they are leaving to get out of the work of breaking camp then I would address this with dad & Scout together. This is probably adding extra work for his remaining patrol members as well as the remaining adults. If you ban him from leaving early then you might lose the Scout.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)(This message has been edited by evmori)

[Stan Riddle]

I'm with Ed on this one. If they boy is going to worship service, then you don't have much to stand on. We all have a much bigger boss than BSA to answer to! But if he's leaving to get out of work, that's a different issue.

 

We had one boy who was leaving early for religous reasons. I spoke with him, and his parents, and assured them that we would have a religous service on Sunday mornings ( non -denominational, ecumenical, or whatever the PC police want to call it ). This did help to get him to stay on Sunday mornings. When we camp nearby, we try to break camp in time for the boys to get to their own places of worship, but if it's some distance from home, we assure the parents that a religous service will be held.

[Rooster7]

I agree with Stan and Ed. If he wants to leave early so he can worship at his church, I wouldn't say anything. However, if it's for non-religious reasons, then he is taking unfair advantage of his troop. I would definitely put a stop to it.

[mk9750]

Yes, tough one indeed. I would guess that the Dad is staying for the weekend, but is not a SM or ASM, right? If that's the case, he likely doesn't understand the hardship he causes by leaving. If so, I would have two suggestions. The first would be to explain to the Dad what the conseguences of them leaving are to the boys and Dads left, and strongly suggest that they not do so again. The second is a little more radical. Our experience has been that often these kind of father / son duos could benefit from a little more time away from each other. If they seem to always hang around each other during the campout, if they take hikes by themselves at the exclusion of group activities on a regualr basis, etc., I think this is a sign that Dad is being a bit too overbearing on his son. The Scout often needs the oppurtunity to strike out on his own, and Dad's presence at the campout is a hinderance in doing so. It's difficult, because I think any parent should be allowed to join any activity anytime they want, but in this case, we would certainly strongly suggest that the dad be discouraged from attending the next campout or two. This I think starts to deal with the root cause of the problem, which is the constant presence of Dad in the Scouts Scouting life. Most full time leaders know how important giving their son space on a campout is, and work hard to do so even when they both go on all of the campouts. Part time leaders (which is the best term I can think of for the dads that go on all of the campouts but not much else) often don't realize this.

 

One added idea is to arrange the transportation so that he is needed to drive more than just his son home. If he has to stay or a couple of boys can't get home, I think he'd stay.

 

And, if all else fails, I'd be tempted to entice my PLC to decide to schedule the next campout so that we were breaking camp early enough Sunday morning to include these two. I think it would only take one time for them to either get the message, or for peer pressure to take over.

 

Mark

[Eagledad]

What does dad say?

 

If this is not a religious issue, then it sounds like a parent issue. Maybe dad needs to understand more about the patrol method and practicing the skills learned from it. Teamwork teaches the leadership skill of working together to accomplish a task. As the Council JLT coordinator, this is a very important skill for when he gets into the PLC. The skill of completing a set goal is also very important for young scouts. If he doesn't learn it now, he will have a difficult time completing other goals in the future like Eagle. IF the patrol starts to see the scout as a goof-off or someone they can't count on, he looses respect in the patrol and is usually pushed back in responsibilities. Respect of being a good leader starts first with respect as a good follower. The scout needs to understand that. The dad needs to understand he gets that by spending as much time with the Patrol as he can get. Maybe it should be suggested the dad stay home a couple of campouts. I have made this suggestion many times when a scout seems to use the parents as a crutch. And if the scout does have to leave because of church, then there are other ways to ask him to do his share so that he learns the skills of leadership and character.

 

Barry

 

 

[SR540Beaver]

Before I get beat over the head for my response, let me state that I was raised being at church everytime the doors were open. I'm not quite as strict about that as my parents were, but still try to be there 95% of the time. One Sunday a month away from church is not going to kill the kid. Chances are he will be at his church that night and is at church every other Sunday morning, Sunday night and Wednesday night as well as at all youth functions. I know for some people that it comes down to priorities and that their religious duty superceeds all else. But the boy needs to realize his commitment to Scouts and other things outside of church as well. He made a commitment when he joined Scouts and needs to follow thru. Perhaps a good way to solve this is to have the Dad take responsibility for providing a church service in camp. It would be a win-win for everyone.

[Rooster7]

kwc57,

 

While I understand your point, I strongly disagree. Many folks look to Sunday not just as a day they go to church, but also as the day that belongs to the Lord. Furthermore, if the BSA is not just giving lip service to "duty to God, Country, and Family", the troop itself should realize that this Scout is setting a good example. They should not only support him in this decision, but they should encourage other Scouts to follow their hearts as well. Even if it meant more Scouts left early. Having said all of the above, there are few other circumstances for which I think the troop should make the exception. Additionally, I would query the parents to ensure that the "religious reason given" was not a bogus excuse created by the Scout. If you can't trust the parents, then you've got bigger problems. There's not much one can do if the parents are not cooperating in the effort. But remember, they encouraged their son to join for a reason. If it's the right reasons, then they'll want to work with you. If it's the wrong reasons, then you're pretty much at their mercy unless you're going to fight for custody of their children.

[acco40]

A troop should provide some type of worship opportunity on ANY activity of 24 hours or more. We regularly get requests from parents that "Johnny has to leave early for a basketball game" or whatever.

 

News flash everyone - It should not be the SMs call. Let the PLC decide if the boy should be able to leave early. They are the ones who will be picking up the slack. The adults should not be burdened with anymore tasks. The boys should be breaking down camp, not the adults.

 

P.S. The subject should have been titled "Johnny Go-EARLY.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[NJCubScouter]

I think the original post suggests that this is not a matter of leaving early to go to religious services. It says the boy and his father have "a different excuse every time." Let's give the writer the benefit of the doubt and assume that he is not referring to religious services as an "excuse," much less a different excuse every time.

 

This is an example of something I have noticed in this forum, and mentioned once or twice. Some people tend to assume that the thread-starter has not told the whole story, and they add in facts that change the answer. Why do some of us do that? Can't we just answer the question presented without turning it into a different question, and even worse, then arguing about the non-question and forgetting the original question.

 

In this case, I think the answer is clear and has been given by several people. Leaving early on a consistent basis and without a valid excuse is not acceptable. It disrupts the event and isn't fair to those who stay behind to load up, for example, the cooking equipment that produced this boy's meals for the weekend. Maybe a talk with the boy and his father will do the trick.

[Rooster7]

NJ,

 

I agree. It doesn't sound as if a "religious reason" was being offered as an excuse. That being said, I agree that this particular boy and/or his dad probably needs to be confronted. However, to be fair to others, including myself, I think many times these threads present some intriguing nuances, which are worth exploring. I don't think anyone is trying to change or twist the topic. We're just exploring some interesting cracks and crevasses. Unfortunately, I guess we have taken our eyes off the mountaintop a few too many times and have gone too far in a different direction.

[eisely]

Based on what was written, I infer that this early leaving is not for religious reasons. A conversation with the father is the best starting point.

[eagle90]

If we know a scout is leaving early Sunday before take-down, we make sure that scout has "extra" duty during setup or during the day on Saturday to make up for missing take-down. Maybe if you make the other duties more difficult he may relize that take down isn't so bad after all.

[slontwovvy]

No, he is most definitely not going to religious services. Past excuses have included homework, a family reunion, doesn't feel well, musical instrument practice, "something to do," etc. I could understand if it happened once, but it happened six times out of seven outings he attended last year, and "requires" them leaving at seven or eight in the morning, after breakfast but before anything is taken down. I really don't think the dad will help out; he's more of a friend to his son than a parent.

 

I think this boy has to learn responsibility fast-he's headed out to Philmont this summer for the first time.

[imascouter]

SLONTWOVVY: I feel your pain! In a past Cub Scout pack there were four families (mine being one of them) that did everything for the other 40 families. We planned it, brought the equipment, set it up, directed it, cleaned it up. We would ask for help and get none. On campouts parents would drive up Sunday morning, Junior would hop in the car and away they went; we cleaned out his tent, and packed it.

 

After three years we had enough and went to a new pack where 10 families did the work for 60. My point: Seems that the majority of families in any organization are inconsiderate and/or lazy. It should be no surprise that your Johnny has leaned this behavior. In fact, count yourself fortunate that there is only one!

 

Now, I have been trying to educate myself about the ways of BOY SCOUTS so that when we get there in the next 45 days we won't be one of those problem Webelos families that expects everything to be the same as CUBS. With that (PATROL METHOD) in mind, I think the question should be; what do the other boys in his patrol think about this? MAYBE if they feel it is ok for one of their own to leave early then it is OK. (Even though it is eating you alive inside, just like it would me!) It is not our (parents) problem. If it is a problem, it is the boys problem.

 

Now if you want to be a meddling parent... (and I know that I want you too) I would wait for the moment (that will surely come) when two of the boys in his patrol are grumbling about packing up the patrol, THEN SUGGEST, "sure would have been easier if Johnny was here to do his part, huh?"

 

My understanding is that our new job is to inspire discussions that lead them to find their own solutions to challenges. Not to tell them what to do, and not to do it for them.

 

Hope this is helpful.

 

NJCubScouter: I too am guilty of assuming that the original poster did not tell the whole story. I recently jumped to the wrong conclusion and felt bad about that. However, people do this because people do SOMETIMES spark a discussion without giving the full details only to later say, "oh yeah, did I mention..." Both problems of human nature I suppose. (My pet peeve is starting a thread with a title that does not say what the thread is about. But as you have said we are getting off topic for this thread.)

(This message has been edited by imascouter)