Democide - Death by Government

[Achilleez]

"The War of 1812. The British, Canadians, and Indians try to take out the new country."

 

That certainly is a unique way of putting it. Another way would be to say that the USA attempted to conquer Canada but was stopped at York.

 

Remember Cypress Hill?

[Adrianvs]

The word makes sense, but it only means "death by government" indirectly. It roughly translates to "killing of population," but in most cases, this is done by a government of some sorts. Few other organizations are capable of such acts. Just like in the case of the word "hypocrisy," a common property (action inconsistent with preaching or governmental killing) was confused with the literal meaning (falsely held beliefs taught or killing of entire populations). In time, the word begins to connote the common and obvious feature rather than the original word object itself. That would be my guess, anyway.

[NJCubScouter]

A weekend camping trip (officially it got down to 1 degree Saturday night, fortunately we were in a cabin but it was still pretty chilly) got in the way of me answering several posts, but I couldn't let Adrian's remarks about the "Inquisition" go without a little historical footnote here.

 

It is one thing to say that people should not use past atrocities to justify more recent ones. Of course I agree with that. Frankly I have never heard of anyone trying to downplay any of the great crimes of the 20th century by referring to the Inquisitions (Spanish or otherwise), but if they do (or did), then Adrian, I'm on your side on that one.

 

But it's an entirely different thing to downplay the Spanish Inquisition itself, by limiting it to a few thousand deaths that you say are estimated by "most historians," and the dubious claim that there was no torture. From what I have read (in a couple of books on Jewish history) there were far more deaths than that and there was indeed torture. I think the Spanish Inquisition also needs to be looked not simply as a series of trials (some by torture) and executions for the crime of "heresy," but as part of what it was: A series of measures designed to destroy the Jewish culture in Spain and other countries. There were hundreds of thousands of forced conversions to Christianity, with many of those who refused to convert being massacred, and many of those who DID convert then being subjected to the "Inquisition" to question whether they had really converted. If they were convicted of heresy, they were burned alive. Finally in 1492 and at other times, the remaining Jews in Spain were exiled. There also is historical evidence that in addition to religious zealotry, another main goal of the Inquisition as well as the exiles was to allow the Church (and the state) to confiscate the lands and property of the Jews, both converted and unconverted.

 

And let's not even talk about the Crusades...

[le Voyageur]

 

It's interesting to note that he Inquistion ended about 1832....but, besides being a purge of heritics, and those that crossed papal authority; the Church (a defacto government of the period), during the time of the Black Death who's priestcraft was incapable of stemming this disease, targeted women as the cause, and executed them in the tens of thousands.....

 

http://malleusmaleficarum.org

[Adrianvs]

I would rather have been a Jew in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries than one in the twentieth (as far as persecution goes).

 

I never intended to justify or minimize the religious (and later ethnic) persecution of the Jews during the late middle ages and early 'enlightenment' era. I simply wanted to note that they are dwarfed by persecutions before, during, and after them. I also mistated when I said that torture was never used. I meant to say that the exotic devices seen in woodcarvings all over textbooks were never used. No iron maiden, no rack, no hanging ropes and burning feet. Torture was used in rare cases, but the rules regulating it were much more strict than in the secular courts. It is too easy to compare the actions of a past time period (or group) with the ideals of a modern one. Such a comparison is invalid.

 

I find it amusing that Muslims violently taking the Holy Land, Turkey, and Northern Africa from Christians is called the "rapid expansion of Islam" while the Christians violently taking the Holy Land back from the Muslims is called "horrible aggression" or "unprovoked mass murder."

 

Of course the sources of anti-Semitism which persist today are virtually undenounced in contemporary literature. What happened to the number of Jews in Cuba during his control of the country? What percentage of college professors consider suicide bombings a valid method of political activism? How many media outlets will caption an individual wearing a headband stating "KILL JEWS" as a "peace protestor?" How many mosques... I won't even go there..(This message has been edited by Adrianvs)

[le Voyageur]

My own thinking for the heavy handed presecution of Jews in the 20th century was due to the rise of Zionism (a Jewish Mafia of racial elitism), and the Zionist's Jerusalem plan. To simplify a very complex subject I'll reduce it to this....in the beginning, ALL Zionist were Jews, but NOT all Jews were Zionist (however, thats not the case today where....ALL Zionist ARE NOT Jews, but STILL NOT all Jews are zionist).

As I see it, the Nazi party rose to counter the Zionists who were wrecking havoc on the German economy. Hilter took the broad brush approach, killing Jews by the millions to get at a handfull of Zionist....pure insanity

[LovetoCamp]

Okey Dokey!(This message has been edited by Trail Pounder)

[Adrianvs]

Very interesting, le Voyageur. So the Nazi campaign of genocide was really to prevent the Zionists ("a Jewish Mafia of racial elitism") from organizing a state in Palestine? Wow.. I wonder why Hitler would have objected to that so much? Was he really fond of Egyptian and Jordanian control of the area? Oh yeah, the Zionists were "wrecking havoc on the German economy?" Thank goodness you concede that not ALL Jews are Zionists. Could you let me know how you can tell the difference between "good Jews" and "bad Jews?" Since Hitler couldn't tell, maybe you could inform us.

 

As I understand it, your thesis is that Hitler's mistake was in trying to kill all the Jews instead of only those members of the "Jewish Mafia" in Germany. So he simply went overboard on an otherwise reasonable plan?

 

Perhaps Hitler should have used a technique more like the inquisitions in rooting out the "Jewish Mafia" Zionists from the good mafia.. Is that what you propose? How would you advise the anti-capitalist, vegetarian, New Age spiritualist, former art student, national socialist Hitler in carrying out this plan?

 

I don't know if this is more pathetic or disturbing..

[le Voyageur]

Well, as I said it was a complex issue...however, this is my view, not THE view.

 

Instead of reacting in such a negative and hostile fashion, why not explore this issue in a different light...try this site

 

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com

[acco40]

If you read near the bottom of this web page you will find:

 

"This is a private community provided by SCOUTER Network and reserved for Scouting related discussions."

 

I fail to see how this thread relates to Scouting. Please try out the "private message" feature if you wish to continue this discussion. No, I am not a moderator or affiliated with this site in any way. I'm just a grateful user of this forum. Thanks.

 

 

[le Voyageur]

Adrianvs -you asked a great question, that is, who decides who is the bad guy, and who is not (I've changed the wording to broaden the scope of your question...)

 

This is actually another one of the hidden fucntions of governments; deciding who is, and who isn't a good guy, and then deciding that person's (or ethnic group's) fate...life or death, freedom or prison..war or peace

 

In this country, the FBI and other US law enforcement enties has been doing just that over the years, by conducting operations against Italian-American, Asian-Americans, African Americans, Japanese-Americans, Irish-Americans, Branch Davidians, Hollywood and the entertainment industries, Mexican-Americans and so on....and now has targeted Arabs and Arab-Americans with the carte blanche authority of the Patriot Act...

 

If one was to look closely at the majority of targeted groups therein, there is one glaring theme seen which is simply governmental racism supported and embraced by we the people...we the people are now travelling down a very dangerous path into the future.... It is my belief that the jingoistic racism of all governments must stop for the welfare of the human race. In this country we the people can put a stop to it, and should put a stop to it before it's too late even for us...

 

It also my belief that jingoistic racism is not the only prime motavating force behind murderous governments, but thrives directly in the absent of personal freedom, and the loss of civil liberties....

[Adrianvs]

"I fail to see how this thread relates to Scouting."

 

I'll explain it to you if you start a new thread for it.

Oh yeah, your recent anti-Christian joke wasn't scout-related, either.

 

 

le Voyageur, Do you think that government can exist without creating massive bloodshed or "jingoistic racism?" What is the ideal state of man? The "noble savage" of Rousseau? Or the societal man of Plato? Are you an anarchist or are you about to propose the new (or old) form of government which will solve all our problems?

 

BTW, I have been aware of the Jews Against Zionism for some time. I have problems with the Zionist movement of the early 20th century, but I have much greater problems with the obsessive anti-Jewish hatred (including self-hatred) that is disguised under the banner of "anti-Zionism."