Bob White Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 I have no doubt that the loss of the park will be an inconvenience to the council to some degree. But it is temporary and not the blow to scouting that some would hope it to be. Keepin mind that the goal of Merlyn, and Mark, and the ACLU is not to change scouting but to end scouting. My main point was that it has virtually no effect on the week-to-week program or on the mission or methods of the Scouting Movement. $1 leases are nothing new to scout councils or other non-profit organizations. Any council who does not consider these a problem in waiting is being very short sighted. The council I am in had a camp that we used for over 50 years, half the acreage was owned by us and half was leased from the town for $1 a year. We came to a turning point as to whether to spend $$$ to improve the camp or to sell it. We sold it largely because we realized the instability of such a lease in the future. This was long before we were the whipping boys for the ACLU. Councils that have these leases know that they can lose them at any a time, but enjoy them while they can. I would not be surprised to learn that a back-up plan is already in place in case one is needed. Yes it will have a budgetary effect that those are temporary as things shift to accommodate change. But no, I do not expect it to change scouting at the National or Unit level at a all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 I have no specific case law to cite. My point is nowhere in the Constitution does it state the church and state must be separate. This is an interpretation. And an incorrect one in my opinion. Our forefathers left their home countries for many reasons. One was the freedom of religion. And we are guaranteed the freedom of religion in the 1st Ammendment. And what does this have to do with the BSA loosing (maybe) its $1 lease in BAlboa Park? I'm sure the park rents to other organizations that discriminate. So, Merlyn, take a hike! The only time you show up on this board is to post drivel that isn't even finalized yet! Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 That's OK, Ed, just keep yourself ignorant, then. After all, Orwell said "Ignorance is Strength". You might be interested to learn that San Diego (back when it was defending the lease) brought up almost exactly what you just did; they claimed that the city leased property to many organizations, and the BSA was just one more such lease. If you had read the link I posted months ago, just a few days after the summary judgement, you would know why the judge didn't accept that as a valid argument (page 16). This is also why NJCubScouter won't bother to explain the first amendment to you; you've been given plenty of opportunities to learn from other people, or on your own, and you simply refuse to learn. And that's why it's pointless to try and engage in any kind of intelligent conversation with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkNoel Posted January 10, 2004 Author Share Posted January 10, 2004 Bob White writes: >Keepin mind that the goal of Merlyn, and Mark, and the ACLU is not to change scouting but to end scouting. I hope you're not referring to me in this statement, because if you are, you're dead wrong and totally misrepresenting my position. I believe that the current political and religious stance of the BSA's leadership needs to be changed precicely because the current policies are damaging the Scouting program in the United States, and have consistently expressed that opinion. I'm going to presume that you're either referring to some other "Mark" here, or that you've made a mistake. But please do not make it again. YiS, -Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 I am curious then Mark, what was your purpose in posting the news on this lawsuit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkNoel Posted January 10, 2004 Author Share Posted January 10, 2004 Um... this still IS a discussion forum for "Issues & Politics," is it not? I posted something that was on-topic and that I thought several folks here would be interested in discussing. It's hardly a secret that I disagree with the BSA's current discriminatory policies, but it's a tremendous and unjustified stretch to assume that simply by sharing the news, I was advocating the end of Scouting in our country. And I'll take it from your response that your statement WAS directed at me. But now that you know that it is not, and has never been, my intent to "end scouting," I trust that you'll refrain from making such misstatements about me in the future. YiS, -Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Then Mark what is your intent? Yes your post is in the correct area, but my question is what was your intent in posting it? There must be a reason you took time to do it. I simply asked what your motivation is. (This message has been edited by Bob White) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkNoel Posted January 10, 2004 Author Share Posted January 10, 2004 Bob, perhaps you need to re-read my last two answers to that a bit more carefully. YiS, -Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 "This is also why NJCubScouter won't bother to explain the first amendment to you; you've been given plenty of opportunities to learn from other people, or on your own, and you simply refuse to learn. And that's why it's pointless to try and engage in any kind of intelligent conversation with you: No I don't refuse to learn. Neither of you has provided anything that shows the 1st ammendment means the church & state must be separate. It is my contention the current interpretation is wrong. Intelligent conversation to you is someone who agrees with you. Not correct. While I am not calling you stupid, your understanding of intelligent conversation is skewed. MarkNoel, You sign all you posts YiS. I assume this means "Yours in Scouting". It is my understanding you were removed from Scouting many years ago. So you YiS is ploy to get everyone to think you are still involved in Scouting? Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 "I hope you're not referring to me in this statement, because if you are, you're dead wrong and totally misrepresenting my position." Your intent is to allow the godless and perverts into Scouting. Am I wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkNoel Posted January 19, 2004 Author Share Posted January 19, 2004 Yes. You're wrong. I want to see BSA return to its roots, where local chartered organizations get to decide for themselves what kind of membership standards they want to set for their units. A lot of those chartered organizations (including the church up here where my troop used to meet) believe that it is immoral to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. Which, by the way, I presume you're referring to when you talk about "perverts" -- another example of where you're wrong (not to mention unfriendly, discourteous, and unkind, among others). And Ed, I sign off with YiS because I spent two thirds of my life in the program and still believe in it. I'm sure that anyone with a search engine can find out as much as they could possibly want to know about my case -- it's an open book. (And one from three years ago -- I'm not sure if that qualifies as "many.") There's no intent to deceive here, no conspiracy to destroy Scouting, or anything else like that. Why is it so hard to believe that someone could disagree with you about this and still be a supporter of the Scouting program? YiS, -Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Mark, By signing off YiS it gives people the impression you are still a member of the BSA. Since you are not, I would suggest you change your sign-off. Your church thought it was "immoral" to discriminate based on sexual orientation? What church did you belong to? Curious to see what they considered "moral" & what standard they used to determine either. By stating Fat Old Guy is wrong are you saying that the BSA once admitted the godless & perverts? I din't think so. Ed Mori 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Dog Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Just a question about the San Diego situation... How much money has the San Deigo council spent on improvements? If the city cancels the lease b4 the end of the contract, would they have to re-imburse the council for improvements? Also, I believe I read that other groups were not denied use of this property, they just needed to schedule their use with the Scout office, is that correct? Under the headlines banner on this web site, I have seen many articles in newspapers calling on folks to support Scouting. It's about time!! BD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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