Where Are We Going Wrong?

[Eamonn]

It would seem from the early reports that I have seen that 2003 has not been a good year for the BSA. The fall in membership nationwide is a big bad blow to all of us.I like to think that most of us in these forums believe in Scouting, even if we may have different ideas of how to deliver the program. So far nothing I have read has explained what has gone wrong. Some people have said that the $3.00 raise in the membership fee may have had something to do with the loss,others are telling me that we just did not attract as many boys into the Tiger Cub and Cub Scout program. I don't know if there is any truth in these statements.

It also seems that at least on the council level that donations are down. I do know that this is true in our council. So it would seem that something is not working. My problem is that I'm not sure what?

In our district we seen the small packs grow some doubled in size, while the bigger packs who had a lot of boys cross over into Boy Scouts and had lost boys just didn't make up the loss. So we had packs that gained 13 or 14 boys while we had packs that lost as many as 20 or 30 boys. At this time we are down by 79 Cub Scouts. We are up in Boy Scouts and Venturers, but only by a few.

Looking at where we failed the Tiger program is starting to stick out like a sore thumb. We only recruited half the number that we did three years ago.Again I don't know why the decline?

I welcome your thoughts ideas and views.

Thanks.

Eamonn

[molscouter]

You can't read anything off of one data point. While I have issues with the new Tiger program, I doubt that that specifically is the problem.

 

Eamonn, what is the size of the first grade in your area? We have had a weird situation in our town with large variance in class size from year to year. Example, my older son is a fifth grader. His class size (currently in a public school) is 27 and this seems to be typical district wide. He transferred out of our Catholic school prior to fourth grade, but the current fifth grade there has around 22 students per class. The current fourth grade is 1/4-1/3 smaller, the Catholic school is around 15 kids per class, the public schools around 20. My younger son is a third grader in the Catholic school, his class size is around 20 (not sure on the public side). It could just be a one year blip. If it continues, then there problems.

[buffalo2]

Has anyone got any data on Weblos - Scout crossovers? Now there's something concrete to work on...

[OldGreyEagle]

This hasnt been a very good year for lots of "Charitable Organizations". I understadn the economy has all the look of picking up, but it has been down for awhile and one of the first cuts people make are donations. That could have something to do with the money.

 

As far as Cub Scouts go, I don't know alot about the program, but I do know they have an issue with training. You can train to be a Tiger Leader and then the next year you have to train to be a Wolf/Bear Leader and then in a few years you have to train to be a Webelos Leader, or so I think it is, tell me where I am wrong. Then there is outdoor skill training for Webelos leaders as well. If I a wrong in my sequencing I aplologize but I do know the Cub Scout program expects it's leaders to be training quite often, and I think this demand on time could be a partial reason. By the time the leader gets comfortable with a set of rules, its time to retrain. This is an observation communicated to me from a "Cub Expert" Then, how many Cubs never meet a Boy Scout, I have mentioned before in our district roundtable keeps mentioning 3 of 4 cub scouts never meet a Boy Scout. Can we improve that number?

 

THen there is the oft mentioned stigma about Boy Scouts and the perception that middle school boys have about them. What is being done at the local image to rehabilitate it? I know, at least response will be a national ad campaign is needed but as I have mentioned before a grass root effort is needed. I dont see how advertising a great program nationalaly wil improve Scouting if at the local level the troops are rarely boy run, the meetings are a shambles and not many are having fun. The need to sell ourselves as a great program has never been greater as Eamonn points out.

 

Now, do we want to live in the ascendency of a great program or its decline, its up to us, not naitonal, not the region, etc. just us.

 

Provide a great program, and they will come(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Wallace]

Keep in mind that without a serious look at the national age group demographics of the BSA, no reasonable assumptions about the program can be made.

The BSA made this mistake before and I hope is wise to not repeat it.

 

[NJCubScouter]

Looking at where we failed the Tiger program is starting to stick out like a sore thumb. We only recruited half the number that we did three years ago.Again I don't know why the decline?

 

Eamonn, just to make it clear, is this a fact from your district alone, or is this a national statistic? I take it from your post that this is your district, but I am not positive.

 

It would be interesting to see the "trend line" nationally in Tiger recruitment. Of course, the fact that the organization to which more BSA units are chartered than any other, does not permit the Tiger program in its packs, may skew things.

 

I could suggest one possible explanation for part of a downward trend, but I don't think a lot of people would like my suggestion. It is just a possibility and I have no idea whether it applies to any particular area such as Eamonn's. For now I will just say that my observation of other parents, as a group, especially parents looking for a program for their young children (6 and 7 years old) is that in general, when they hear the slightest suggestion of controversy, they run as fast as possible in the other direction.

 

[Fat Old Guy]

Big problem is that there are just too many things to do and most of them are sports related. It used to be that you played baseball in the spring, football in the fall, and basketball in winter. Now, soccer and basketball are year round, baseball practice starts in February which plays havoc with basketball. Added into the mix are lacross, roller hockey, BMX, band, youth choir, yada, yada, yada.

 

A kid in Cub Scouts often looks at soccer vs. Scouts and says, "Soccer is funner" because all he does in Scouts is build paper airplanes. Parents of older kids are convinced that sports will be the savior when it comes to college.

 

Cub Scout leaders need to start making Cub Scouting the fun that it is supposed to be. I know many Cub Scout leaders that never have weekend outings. Go to air shows. Go to the police acamdemy. Go watch the Civil War re-enactors. Go fishing. Heck, go camping (family camping of course) and when you go camping don't just play "capture the flag" or frisbee, go tramp about in the woods looking for critters.

 

As Bob White might say, "if the program is fun, the boys will come."

[Eamonn]

I may have been a little off in some of my numbers.

National Youth Members/Participants as of November 30, 2003

Total Registered:

2002= 4,322,679

2003= 4,024,734 This is a loss of 6.9%

Total Cub Scout-Age:

2002= 1,886,090

2003= 1,810,060 This is a loss of 4.0%

Total Boy Scout Age:

2002= 971,649

2003=960,683 This is a loss of 1.1%.

Not all the news is bad Venturing went up by 0.2% from 247,354 in 2002 to 247,905 in 2003.

Eamonn

[Bob White]

It has been a tough year nationally, but I believe that it is a problem that can only be solved on a local level. Each council needs to address the growth of scouting based on it's own demographics and program strengths and weaknesses. Our council which is fairly small as councils go, had a 16% increase in membership this year mostly in Cub Scouting. I understand it was one of the largest increases in the nation though not the largest.

 

It was accomplished primarily on two fronts. A huge training push over the last two years in order to have more leaders who understood the scouting program and their role in making work. This did a lot for our retention of existing members. The second benefit was 2 very talented and active committees. Our marketing and our membership committees did an outstanding job of coordinating and promoting our fall recruitment activities.

 

We added over 1,600 new youth members in two week period. Now it is in the hands of Activities, Training, Fundraising, and Rountable to keep the momentum up.

 

We cannot expect a national headquarters to understand the characteristics of every community throughout the country. That is not their role. It is up to us locally to deliver the program to our neighborhoods.

 

The biggest problem I see in the growth of scouting is the number of units that do not deliver a true scouting program. They are the spoilers in the process. Boys who join and do not get the program they were promised leave with a bad taste of scouting that can transfer across generations.

 

But that's just my perspective.

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Hunt]

I think the change in youth sports probably does have something to do with it--where I live in the DC suburbs, by middle school most of the kids who are playing sports are intensively playing a single sport year 'round, often with multiple practices a week, tournements on many weekends, and travel to games. The kids who don't play sports are, in my view, less likely to supply the best pool for kids interested in the active outdoor program of Scouting. There are exceptions (my own son is one--although he's kind of an egghead, he constantly amazes me by liking camping, hiking, etc.)--but the kid who's on a travel soccer team is probably not going to get heavily involved in Scouting--he'd either have to miss games (a total no-no) or he'd have to miss many, or most, Scouting events. I guess the point is that in the current environment, Scouting has to compete with activities that in the past it could coexist with.

[Fat Old Guy]

In my humble view, the intense focus on sports doesn't do anyone any favors. The kid's don't get to be well rounded because they do little other than their selected sport. Drama? Forget it, conflicts with indoor soccer. Band? Uh-uh. Try another sport? Coach won't allow it.

 

There's that Disney movie about the twins who made it into the WNBA. Their wacko father moved them to a new school district so they could play basketball but it was his dream not theirs. For them, it worked out but the success stories are rare.

 

A few years ago I read an article about high school sports, it reported NCAA figures that 1 out of 3,000 high school basketball players and 1 out of 1,000 high school football players get some level of scholarship. Soccer is even worse, a high school soccer coach told me that it is 1 out of 10,000.

 

Other school activities are getting just as intense. One Scout dropped out of our troop because of drama club. Yep, drama club. He was a Life Scout, OA and on the track to Eagle when he just up and quit because most weeknights and weekends were involved in drama.

 

There are exceptions to the rule. I know an Eagle Scout who is a varsity soccer player, in concert band, jazz band and CAP as well as still being active in Scouting.

[evmori]

Gotta agree about the sports thing. My daughter plays high school basketball & it is year round. More & more sports are getting like this. The "season" is when the games count in the statistics. Practice is all the time.

 

Ed Mori

A blessed Christmas to all!

1 Peter 4:10

[mk9750]

Our unit has shown decline in numbers in the last two years. One jolt had to do with adults not playing together nicely, but we've had a general decline in addition to that.

 

I'd like to hear how FOG handled the situation with the Scout who quit for the Drama Club. I'd also like to hear from others. We have always made anyone who was quitting in order to participate in something else know that WE didn't view their situation as all or nothing. In other words, we are very open to allowing boys to be almost completely inactive during their sport's in season, and then get more active when they are done. They know it will likely have an effect on their advancement, especially if they don't work on anything while they are inactive. But we always try to make them feel as though they don't have to quit. Is that how anyone else handles things?

 

FOG, where are you from? You are the first person who mentioned LaCrosse as a sport that competes with Scouting. There aren't too many areas of the country where it is a significant sport. It's just becoming popular in Ohio. both my sons play. Great game.

 

Mark

[Mike F]

Part of it is also the level of commitment from parents and leaders to make it work.

 

My two Boy Scouts are active in sports and one's in band. Fortunately their leaders encourage the boys to come when they can and praise their dedication when they show up in sweaty practice clothes for the last half of a meeting. With that kind of support, the boys feel good about what they're doing and usually even remember to put their uniform in the van so they can change on the way over.

 

Last Saturday was a good example. #2 son's troop was on a campout, but his school basketball team was playing in a tournament. He was insistent he didn't want to miss the night navigation exercise they had planned, so after the last buzzer, we grabbed our packs and drove 1.5 hrs to join the troop. He was exhausted on Sunday, but grinning from ear to ear.

 

#1 son has had a passion for basketball since he was 2 years old (literally). We've done our best to balance it, but in his mind, b-ball always came first. Somehow his leaders and I have managed to keep him involved and this year - his Junior year in High School - he didn't make the team and is turning into one of the strongest leaders in the troop. (In a way, I think he's relieved to be focused and he's definitely excited about the influence he is having on the direction of the troop.)

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't always work out so well - even in my house. Since I'm committed to working with the older sons and their troops, She Who Must Be Obeyed (SWMBO) has the lead role right now working with #3 son, a Tiger. After some pretty lame meetings this Fall, it's looking like the combination of church choir and basketball is going to take priority this year, but we'll figure out a way to make it work next year - including hunting around until we find a more active group. (I think part of the problem with Tigers is that parents are required to be active participants with their son. With that age group, I doubt they could do it any other way, but it's a definite drawback in my house where we don't always have an extra 1.5 hrs a week.)

 

I guess I just reinforced a point made over and over on these forums: #2 son made the extra effort to get to his campout late because he was excited about what they were doing. "It's the PROGRAM, stupid!" #3 son & SWMBO aren't willing to make the extra effort because they thought meetings were boring. #1 son followed his sports passion for a while, but sees the extra time to give to Scouts now as a benefit of not making the team and he's having a blast helping to drive that program for the troop.

 

Kids aren't thinking about scholarships - they want fun, excitement, challenges, and recognition.

 

Leaders can encourage their sports/band players for their extra effort when they make it.

 

Enough of my little story. We need to do a better job locally of getting the word out about the great fun and adventures the Scouts are having. I had ideas about sending some pictures and an article to the local paper about our Boundary Waters canoe trip last summer, but never followed through. Some positive local press like that could help offset some of the other national negative press. Since I only thought and didn't turn ideas into action, guess I'm part of the problem... Guilty as charged.

[OldGreyEagle]

Gotta love Lacrosse, not many games around where you get to swing a stick above your shoulders in a crowd...

 

Possibly, and this is just meant as food for thought, but perhaps scouting is doing this to itself. How many people have posted here have said they have attendance requirements and dont care that they are doing so against BSA policy. Perhaps if these Troops were a little more flexible the scouts wouldnt be making a choice, but doing both.

 

The Scout FOG mentions is most likley not from a Troop with artificial attendance barriers.

 

Now, just because I said Troops should be flexible, I in no way wish to have anyone think that changing requirements for the "busy" scout is in any form acceptable. I am not saying that. Requirements are met when they are met, Position of Responsiility must be successfully/adequately served. I am saying if a "busy" scout wants to stay in the troop, I say work with them.

 

I posted in the "Whats your Troop got" thread we have 86 scouts and about 50-55 are active, its not the same 50 -55 it changes with the seasons