Saddam Captured!

[NJCubScouter]

Big Dog says:

 

Did I hear that one of our soldiers was about to drop a grenade down that hole b4 he saw something? That could have saved a lot of trouble.

 

It might have saved "trouble" in the sense of having to hold, try and punish the guy, and probably get criticism from other nations along the way (actually it has already started because the Brits don't want to participate in a process that involves the death penalty.) However, I think it is much better overall that we got him alive. Not to be too gruesome, but if that soldier had lobbed the grenade in there, convincing the nation and the world that the remains belonged to Saddam Hussein would have been much more complicated than what actually happened. DNA evidence from a corpse is one thing, but when they released that photo yesterday showing him with his beard shaved off, and with his hair cut and mustache trimmed back to where they were when he was in office, the picture tells a thousand words. That's the guy and everybody can see it.

 

I hope he doesn't come to the states, he might get Johnny Cochrane as his defender or something.

 

I think he is going to be tried in Iraq, though I am sure there will be American lawyers at least assisting the prosecution team, if not in a lead role. But why not give him the best defense lawyers money can buy? I don't mind my tax dollars going to the cause. Let the prosecutors prove their case against the best, and his conviction will have that much more impact. Our enemies in the Arab world will not be able to claim that he was railroaded and denied adequate counsel.

 

Something else I wonder, why didn't he come out fighting?

 

I'm not sure that he really gave it a lot of thought at that point. I think he just had enough. I have no sympathy for him, but I would guess that all of the hiding and running around and fleeing and finding out his sons were dead and statues toppled and top guys captured, had a serious emotional impact on him. I think even the meanest, cruelest person would begin to wear down under the strain. When he realized the game was up, he just gave up. I don't think he wanted to fight anymore.

 

Is that suicide thing where you take as many with you as you can only good for peons? If he were a true believer in that stuff about virgins waiting for you in heaven (or wherever it is you go), wouldn't that have been better than that rat-hole he was hiding in?

 

Despite his show of Islamic piety during the first Gulf War, I don't think he was devout at all, and did not really believe any of that stuff that they feed to 17-year-old prospective suicide bombers. He was in some ways a realist and pragmatist, though with an over-inflated sense of his own power. Also remember that the Baathist Party (still in power in Syria) was a quasi-Marxist, Soviet-backed, mostly-secular group. They use Islam as a tool to acquire and retain power, because that is a good way to recruit and keep their footsoldiers (including terrorists) motivated in those countries, but I really don't think there was a lot of sincere praying toward Mecca going on behind closed doors in the presidential palace.

 

Anyway, here's to the hope Bin Ladin is quickly to follow...

 

It would be nice but I would not hold my breath. It is really a different situation than Saddam, who had a lot of enemies, and most ordinary people were probably only to happy to help find him so they wouldn't have to worry about him anymore. As for binLaden, I would guess he is hiding in the Pashtun (ethnic Afghan and Taliban-sympathetic) areas in the mountains of western Pakistan and that the residents there have no interest in giving him up. I am also pretty sure we have agreed with the Pakistanis that we are not going to cross the border (at least not in force) to find him. I doubt the Pakistanis will either.

 

... and our troops can come home to the hero's welcome they so richly deserve!!!!!

 

Dittos to that. I wouldn't mind if they came home now. We won the war. Trying to turn Iraq into a democracy, with our soldiers in the line of fire, is a fool's errand in my opinion.

 

 

[Achilleez]

While I agree that it is a good thing Saddam no longer poses a threat to anyone, I definitely don't approve of the way people are reacting to this. There is celebrating and rejoicing, cries of releif of relaxation. But it is only one man. I can't beleive that people think that if they find Bin Laden, all the worlds problems will be solved. Never forget the golden rule of politics : The most powerful are the most hated. The USA is the most powerful country in the world, thus, there is a global disliking for Americans almost everywhere, whether you would like to admit it or not.

 

I don't think that the USA is accomplishing anything by targeting missiles at buildings they suspect contain terrorists. In fact, I have beleived since the beginning that this war on terrorism would only make the problem worse.

 

Instead of crushing opposition to the US, look at why there is opposition and try to target the problem there.

[Eamonn]

Sorry Achilleez I don't understand your reasoning. While I am not an American I happen to think when it comes to helping others every nation in the world takes the back seat to the USA.

America has been there with aid whenever needed.

America has bailed other Nations out when they have fallen on hard times.

Heck if it weren't for you yanks I might be speaking German.

Eamonn

[lasteagle83]

Achilleez, I admire your enthusiasm and idealism. It's misguided, but I respect it. In fact, if you weren't in the Land of Zed and Eh, I'd fight for your rights to said opinions.

 

But, sadly, we Americans are such poor sports with the rest of the world....all those billions of dollars of foreign aid.....sending our sons and daughters to die so others might live with dignity and respect.....doing the right thing while others (the UN) stood by and watched.

 

Sounds like the US is kinda Scout-like, don't ya think?

 

PS - If this country is such a bad place, will you please take Shania and Celine back? We wouldn't want them to continue to take advantage of their success in this country and forget their roots. God forbid we should corrupt them with American ideals.

 

PPS - Eammon, please keep your Commonwealth stepchildren away from the computer!! :-)

[hops_scout]

I think the war on terror is making a world of difference. We had to relieve a little bit of anger after 9/11. We werent going to just stand there and let them win. We took a stand for freedom. We had to let them know that the US doesnt back down.

 

"This aint no rag; it's a flag and stands for where the good guys live"

[Fuzzy Bear]

Sadman really showed us what he was all about. Laying in a hole in the ground with a box full of money day after day. He was cowering with his fear, fleas and filth. He has found his eternal resting palace in life. They should have built a small strip of road over him that starts and stop right there in the desert and call it the king's highway. FB

 

[Achilleez]

It was not my intention to belittle American efforts to make the world a better place for all nations. And I know that despite whatever Michael Moore says, the USA (at least to my knowledge) has done more good than harm in foreign affairs.

 

My latter point was much more vague and idealistic, but I still stand by my first argument; I am disgusted with how people are taking this Saddam captured thing. It may put an end to many of his loyalists who plot to blow up an American army jeep along the road (not that I don't respect the lives of the soldiers who sacrifice themselves), but I am taling about the much larger picture. Capturing one man, or blowing up a suspected terrorist building accomplishes little. The Middle East is very large place, with alot of hatred to America floating about.

 

As much as I hate Michael Moore, I have to agree with his claim that America is a very fear-driven place. My uncle in England couldn't return home last week becuase his flight was cancelled due to "security reasons". A war on terrorism is a war that the USA can never win, not through force anyway. And continuing the war only incites more fear and panic.

[Fat Old Guy]

"As much as I hate Michael Moore, I have to agree with his claim that America is a very fear-driven place."

 

The press and goverment have their own agendas and part of that is to fan the flames of panic. More panic means more power.

 

Wasn't it Franklin who said, "Those who will trade freedom for security deserve neither"? The Soviet Union was very secure but how much freedom did they have? It looks like we might be headed that way. National ID cards. Random checkpoints. Cameras watching our every move. Police browsing our email.

[Achilleez]

did someone say Patriot Act?

[berkshirescouter]

The current war of terror is really a war against the modern world. Middle eastern culture has not absorbed the changes of the past 100 years and as a reaction some want to go back to the 7th century. Until that culture is happy with its self the rest of the world will have to be ready to react to the threats.

[Fuzzy Bear]

There does not appear to be an intelligent and/or a practical answer in any direction on this issue. We can argue for, against, or not at all but there will not be an answer. The Greeks found war to be the elixir to their question and the Romans followed suit; different names but same gods. All countries since have drank deeply of the same sovereign remedy. World War 1 was the war to end all wars and so was WW 2, yet, we could only do this by changing the name to Police Actions. We have built bombs that can destroy the world multiple times and yet there is only one small world to target. There are enough chemical weapons to destroy all life, except cockroaches but people endlessly cook. We can build a high wall between us but they will find a way over or under, long live the Khan. Their God, our God, or no god all reveals the same answer. It is our nature to eliminate our enemies until we are all gone.

 

We are a barely a speck lost somewhere in this gigantic cosmos and we fight each other with ruthless abandon, as if we were issued the Holiest of decrees to do so. We crown our selfhood with the highest of import and swagger like drunken lords, yet we are the smallest of vapors in the fabric of space and time.

 

We can beg for peace and there will be no peace with certainty. We can call for war and it is sure to arrive at our doorstep with Fedex speed. The use of weapons and hatred are inbred and people will never willingly let either go and neither will go away on their own.

 

Yet, I hold to the tiniest thread of hope that we will still find an answer. FB

 

[Adrianvs]

"...but I still stand by my first argument; I am disgusted with how people are taking this Saddam captured thing."

 

I'm sure you would see no problem with partying down harder than the Iraqis if your political candidate was elected or another was defeated. Do you really not see the emotional impact of a man who killed millions including hundreds of thousands of civilians being brought to justice and permanently removed from power? Or is it just too much of a political liability for the 2004 election to even pretend that reality exists? "This CANNOT be something good. Prime directive states that only bad can come from government during set period of time..." I think your gut impression is that this is a BAD thing, but you realize that you can't state such a thing openly. Do you secretly wish that Saddam came back into power and slaughtered a couple thousand civilians? Be honest now.. Do you wish that terrorists would kill more Americans just before the November election? Would that make you grin as you waited for the political commentary? Tell us the truth. Do you get a warm fuzzy feeling every time the soldiers' death toll rises? Are you disappointed that there haven't been any terrorist attacks on American soil since 9-11-01? Is your political faith so absolute that you have made right into wrong and wrong into right? Or have you just been brainwashed into believing that even small victories (the capture of a mass-murderer and mass-torturer) cannot be celebrated? What would be cause for celebration for you? I don't expect an honest answer, but then again I'm not sure that I would like to hear one..

 

 

"We are a barely a speck lost somewhere in this gigantic cosmos and we fight each other with ruthless abandon, as if we were issued the Holiest of decrees to do so. We crown our selfhood with the highest of import and swagger like drunken lords, yet we are the smallest of vapors in the fabric of space and time."

 

We must remember that your reductive cosmology assumes one crucial fact: Man is the astronomer.

Or steal another trite statement, "It may be crooked, but it's the only game in town."

I do agree with the gist of your statement as William Golding stated it: "Men produce evil like bees produce honey."

I see hope, as well. But to find that solution, we need to realize that we are rather like "broken gods" to use Chesterton's terms.

 

 

 

"As much as I hate Michael Moore, I have to agree with his claim that America is a very fear-driven place."

 

As Arnold Schwartzenegger said in Kindergarten Cop, "Compared to what?" This type of comparison is very common, but what is the standard to which we compare the US? People like Michael Moore? While he may not really be that paranoid about non-liberals in political power, he sure pretends to be to sell products. Are the terrorists or the Muslim community less fear-driven? What about other foreign powers? Are they less fear-driven? What about those (aside from Mr. Moore) who comment on the fear-driven nature of society? Are they fear-driven themselves? FOG provides a good example of this:

 

"It looks like we might be headed that way. National ID cards. Random checkpoints. Cameras watching our every move. Police browsing our email."

 

America is indeed a fear-driven place. But the fear-driven Americans aren't the ones you are likely referring to and they aren't alone in their fear-driven motives.

 

 

 

I'm going to sleep now; I'm quoted out...(This message has been edited by Adrianvs)

[Fuzzy Bear]

I don't see any answer coming from any party other than the one conclusion, drawn and quartered. It is similar to a boulder being pushed off a cliff. Most everyone agrees that it will hit bottom and that the most daring intervention will arrive with the same results.

 

I readily admit that I don't have an answer either but I sincerely want one.

 

As far as comparative observation of the cosmos, the same argument in Protagorean Relativity, it would postulate that the individual makes the truth. There are those that would observe and yet deny that anything exists and be telling their truth and be correct. This is an interesting argumentative process that is fun when deciding the answer to the number of angels that could comfortably sit on the head of a pin but may beg to be reconsidered when trying to conclude matters of a physical nature.

 

You may see something else when you look out there but from my point of view, the vastness of the universe instills enough fear to quite the most verbal skeptic inside of me. I also realize that I am a part of it and somehow that is very exciting and satisfying. FB

 

[Achilleez]

Correction, I do not disapprove with how people are reacting to Saddams capture, I disapprove of the many people who see this as the answer to the worlds problems. Even if we find all of his followers, even if we find Osama bin Laden in cave in the mountains and give him a short drop and a sudden stop, it doesn't solve the cause. And thats what this whole thing is about, the cause. Yes, Osama Bin Laden's actions were horrible and gravely misguided, but come on, every single crazed maniac out there commiting sins finds a way to justify it in their own minds.

 

No one thinks or accepts the fact that they are evil, in their mind they distort the facts and manage to see themselves as the right and the opposition as the wrong.

 

So what am I getting at? Why DO so many people in the Middle East harbor such hatred for a country that has repeatedly aided them in every way they can. I am not implying that the reasons for hatred against America are just, I am simply impyling that the reasons exist. And so long as they do exist, there will be future Osama Bin Laden's who let their anger and malice carry them much too far. You cannot pass it off by saying every Arab who hates the USA is just crazy and we can ignore them. That is why a war on terror is a war that the US can never win.

[Fat Old Guy]

"You cannot pass it off by saying every Arab who hates the USA is just crazy and we can ignore them."

 

The world hates America because we have everything that they don't have. Mostly freedom and money and the freedom to spend our money on really stupid things like Playstations.

 

The world and liberals put Americans in an uncomfortable situation. If an American goes to another coutry, he is chastised because he doesn't speak the language and doesn't learn the local customs. However, when foreigners come to this country, liberals (gotta love 'em) expect us to make allowances for the foreigners because they have their own ways.

 

The world doesn't hate Canada because there aren't enough of you.