Scouting's "Geeky" or "Lame" Image

[Hunt]

To draw this out of a thread that has become yet another about you-know-what...What do you think causes some boys to think Scouting is "geeky" or "lame," and what can be done about it? Is it the program, the uniform (in general or the specific configuration), or things like the Law and Promise?

I think it's not the outdoor program--nobody would call a hiking, camping, and canoeing club geeky. What do you think?

[Rooster7]

I think Scouting gets it "geeky" image from this false idea:

 

Boys are babysat by a bunch of parents and not given any freedom to do anything on their own. The uniforms re-enforce this idea. Outsiders say to themselves: The parents like the uniforms. The boys wear the uniforms not because they are proud of their affiliation with the BSA or the things that they do, but because the parents tell them to wear them. The uniforms are reminders to everyone that these boys are still being told what to do by their parents. The boys are seen as immature and overprotected.

 

I dont believe this idea but I think many kids outside of Scouting do. The media, which is unconscionable, re-enforces this idea at almost every opportunity. Scouts are always presented as geeky and mommy-dependent.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

My son, YoungSpikedEagle tells me there is a symbol which I have forgotten that represents a concept known as "Straight Edge" or "Razor Edge". If I understand it correctly it means No Drugs, No Alcohol, No Sex. Kids take the pledge and are expected to live up to their promise. Has anyone else heard about this, it may only be regional. It might be a good idea if this is a naitonal thing for the BSA to incorporate a temporary (or permanent patch) for youth who acept this challenge. May show we are a little more hip than what is expected and we still keep our values.

 

And I will echo Roosters comment that Boy Scouts is sometimes seen as a big babysitting club by some. And why is that? maybe because adults ARE telling the boys what they can and cant do in far too many troops. Everytime a Troop leans towards being adult run rather than boy lead, it sticks another sign up, "hey we are geeks, we do what adults tell us, we have no minds of our own. we have no self governance"

 

The whole core of scouting according to B-P was the Promise, Oath and form of self-governance. If your not Boy lead, you are going to be perceived as lame.

 

And I will disagree with Rooster a little as well, (What a shock, Huh Rooster?). I dont think you can blame the media for Scoutings image. They may not do us any favors, but I wonder how many troops make it a monthly goal to do something positive for the community and publicize it. How about Quaterly ?

 

Why stay in a position where we have to defned ourselves, lets be aggressive and sell what we do.

 

BTW, A quick afterpost thought.

 

DSTEELE what is the policy about the BSA diseminating information about youth and adult heroism awards? I know they do one a month in Boy's Life, could they put an update on the BSA website about how many were given in a month, year, and for what reasons? Maybe a resource for troops to use when trying to hone Scoutings image(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Rooster7]

OGE,

 

With the exception of "Follow Me Boys", look at how boys in Scouting are portrayed by the TV and movies. Are they self-dependent? Are they confident? Are they athletes? Are they well-rounded individuals? I submit the answer to all of these questions is - No (not if you go by the media). So how are they portrayed?

 

They are: allergy infested, mommy protected, low self-esteemed, uncoordinated, geeky loners. This image is constantly being presented by TV sitcoms and PG-13 movies.

 

Name one recent movie or sitcom whereas a boy in Scouting is presented as a well rounded, smart, athletic kid. And more importantly, name one movie or sitcom whereas a kid's participation in Scouting is given even partial credit for his development into a well-rounded, smart, athletic kid. It may be the BSA's job to change its image. But the media is decidedly against them. And since the BSA has fallen out of favor with the liberal elite (probably since Vietnam), I doubt if the media will do much to help them. For every positive image coming out of Hollywood, you'll probably see a half-dozen or more negative connotations about the BSA. I hope you prove me wrong, but I doubt that outcome in this particular case.

 

[SR540Beaver]

Hmmmmm, lame or geeky? I think a lot of it has to do with the good turn. Boy Scouts have a reputation for being "goody two shoes". Kids are rebellious by nature, so any program that stresses a conventional, conservative conformity is something to be avoided. At least at face value. Many kids are brought up in good homes where these standards are taught. They know right from wrong, but on the surface will succumb to peer pressure in parroting the lameness or geekiness of a program like Scouting. Christian kids get the same guff from non-church kids too. So, I think the "values" of Scouting causes some of the geek view to outsiders.

 

The uniform is another geek factor item. Sports uniforms are flashy and mimic pro and college teams. The scout uniform has changed over the years, but fundamentally has stayed the same with it's color, patches and neckerchief. Other than scouts, who do you see wear neckerchiefs? One of the most common complaints my son gets when trying to recruit buddies is the uniform. In this day of flash, style and name brands, the scout uniform is a throw back to another time in the eyes of many kids. The uniform style does not emulate any of their heroes like sports uniforms do.

 

Not too long ago, one of our Webelos' dad told us his son would not be crossing over because the Boy Scouts seemed to be made up of losers and geeks. I can't agree with the loser statement, but I have met a lot of geek Boy Scouts. But I see geekiness from adult eyes, where the kids see it from kid's eyes. The geeks of Scouts are kids who are less worried about living the common teen image and are more interested in persuing the things that interest them. I'm sure Bill Gates was considered a geek by many of his classmates. We adults know time changes things. Anyone who has ever attended a high school reunion realizes that the cool kids and the geeks kind of blend together over the years. I saw some prom queens that weighed 300 lbs and some geeky chess club girls who were knockouts after 20 years. So yeah, Scouts has some pretty geeky kids that the "cool" kids wouldn't be caught dead with. But some day the cool kid may be working for the geeky scout.

 

I know I'm rambling, so I'll quit pulling things off the top of my head. I understand why people see scouting as geeky. I do sometimes myself. But I love it and can't think of any other program that could benefit my son more.....because I get it.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Well, Steven Spielberg thought well enough of Scouting to make Indiana Jones an early Boy Scout in IJ and the Last Crusade, but he obviously doesn't agree with the BSA's current discriminatory attitude, so maybe that doesn't count.

[OldGreyEagle]

OMG! is it fair to say that merlyn stole one of my responses? Anyway, Indiana Jones was a very good boy scout now wasn't he?

 

In the 1995 movie Bushwacked ! starring Daniel Stern, a rather forgetable "family" comedy the Stern charactor impersonates an adult leader and takes a group of "Ranger Scouts" on an overnight. While not portrayed as Boy Scouts, there are plenty of similarities in uniform and vocabulary. Now, there is also a charactor, played by Brad Sullivan who is a role model for all scout leaders, least wise I wouldnt mind emulating his outdoor skill and physical condiiton and the kids are portrayed as being pretty clever as well.

 

Its a good movie to show the group and ask where the Youth protetion violations are, but the kids and the real scout leader is portrayed as strong

 

in the 2002 movie Spy Game with Robert Redford and Brad Pitt, the following exchange occurs between Robert Redford's and Pitt's charactor:

 

 

Redford: (marveling at marksmanship scores) Where did you learn to shoot like that?

 

Pitt: Boy Scouts sir!

 

Now that is the image I want to promote, good skills and proud of where they came.

[Rooster7]

Okay - I'll concede that The Last Crusade was a good example - ironically from Spielberg. However, if you watch that movie closely, Indy seemed to be the only one who knew what he was doing. In other words, Indy was the exception not the rule.

 

Bushwhacked did Scouting no favors. While the characters were likeable, they were geeky young kids. They were not strong characters. Your typical teenaged boy is not going to say - "Wow, I want to be like them!" In fact, I think most would feel quite the opposite.

 

As for the line in the Spy Game movie, does that line undo all the damage done by dozens of sitcoms that make unflattering references to the Boy Scouts? Boy Scout is regularly used as a synonym for naivet and geekdom. Boys and leaders that are shown participating in Scouting are usually ill-equipped, unskilled, un-athletic wanabe rangers. Am I the only one whos noticed that?

 

Having said the above, Ill give you two gold stars for the two movie references. I'm just saying - the media isn't blameless.

[Zahnada]

I love Indiana Jones! Great movie!

 

But back to the original topic, I think the image stems from conceptions of Cub Scouts. The two groups are solidly linked in the minds of most boys and adults. But they shouldn't be. As we all know, Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts are two very different groups that have two very different programs (mostly based on age differences).

 

Many Cub Scouts either don't join Boy Scouts or drop out because of the image. What's the image of Cub Scouts? After school, a group of boys goes to someone's mom's house and they wear their uniforms and make arts and crafts. There's no high adventure (naturally because of age) and limited camping. The boys have little responsibility, control, or leadership given to them through the program. (I would like to appologize for my stereotypical representation of the Cub Scouts. I know there are many Cub Scouters in this forum who run a much more exciting program than the one I described. But this is the general image from what I've seen.)

 

So, if Boy Scouts is seen as simply an extension of Cub Scouts, of course it'll be seen as geeky. Boys who enter the dreaded middle school years want to be free from their parents. They want to be outdoors, doing athletic stuff, they want to take control. Cub Scouts never offered any of that so why should they believe Boy Scouts will?

 

In my opinion, boys don't understand the differences between the two programs enough. The geeky image comes from Cub Scouts. If a middle school boy does anything that elementary school boys do, it's considered geeky. I think a firm separation between the two programs needs to be established. I don't know how this can be done. It's the inherent problem with a program that spans 10 years of a growing boy's life.

[Hunt]

How about these very modest (ahem) proposals:

1. Drop the word "Boy." It makes the program sound like kid stuff.

2. Redesign the uniform. Hire the people who design skateboard team outfits to do the job. Redo it every three years.

3. Advertise Scouting more in general media, focusing on high adventure. Sponsor a skateboarding team.

4. Split Boys Life between Cubs and older scouts, and make the older version much cooler. Use it as a recruiting tool.

[dan]

Hunt

Would the leaders have to wear the new skateboarding uniforms?

I shudder to think of some leaders wearing skateboarding outfits.

Every 3 years! could you imgaine the cries of of the costs then!

 

[NJCubScouter]

I usually try to keep my "Star Trek" fandom and trivia knowldge quiet around here, but if we're discussing the image of Boy Scouts in film and tv, I can't resist.

 

Up until very recently, the one reference to Boy Scouts in the Star Trek "universe" was a throwaway line that was not something to be proud of. In "Star Trek II" (made in the early 80's), a scientist in his early 20's is discussing with his mother a man who he believes was just one of her old boyfriends, Captain James Kirk (he later finds out that Kirk is his father.) In a scene before he figures this out, he makes a derogatory reference to Starfleet officers "like that overgrown Boy Scout you used to hang around with." Mom responds with something like, "If you're talking about James Kirk, he was no Boy Scout." Although one could read the implications different ways, the tone of Mom's voice conveys admiration for Kirk for being "no Boy Scout." The unspoken suggestion being, in part, "if he was a 'Boy Scout', you wouldn't be here, sonny-boy." Now I guess one could read this in a positive way, as a suggestion that 'Boy Scouts' don't have, um, intimate relations with their girlfriends. But overall, the impression I have always gotten from this scene is the old goody-two-shoes, Momma's boy stereotype of Boy Scouting.

 

(For any actual Star Trek fans out there, yes, I know that the characters I have been discussing are named Carol Marcus and David Marcus. I just didn't want to scare any Trek-o-phobes who might be out there.)

 

As I said, this was the only Star Trek reference to Scouting until very recently. In an episode of the current series, "Enterprise," there is a brief scene where the captain (Archer) and weapons officer (Reed) are discussing their Boy Scout experiences. I couldn't remember exactly what they were talking about, so I found this on a web site:

 

An interesting "future history" note - the Boy Scouts are apparently still earning merit badges in the 22nd century. Archer earned 26 of them and made it to Eagle Scout, while Reed accumulated 28, including a merit badge in exobiology. Any scouts hoping to earn a hunting merit badge are out of luck, as Archer points out that hunting for sport has been out of fashion on Earth for a century.

 

http://www.thelogbook.com/log/trek5/year1.htm

 

I guess it should be noted that "Enterprise" is set in the second half of the next century, while the "Star Trek" of Captain Kirk is about 100 years after that. Interestingly, whoever wrote the above excerpt apparently does not know that there is no "hunting" merit badge now, much less in the theoretical future when hunting has gone "out of fashion." (Though I know Rifle Shooting does involve some knowledge of hunting, just no actual hunting.)

 

But the real point is, in "Enterprise," Boy Scouting is being discussed in a positive manner and in the specific context of what knowledge an adult might have that could be of use in particular crisis, as a result of having earned the relevant merit badge as a boy (similar to the reference in "Spy Games.")

[SR540Beaver]

Zahnada,

 

You make some good points, but I don't agree totally with you. It all depends on the Cub program you are running. The Cubs do Cub stuff and the Boy Scouts do Boy Scout stuff. In between stands Webelos where my son currently is. We use the program as it is intended to transition the boys to Scouts. We visit troops, go to Camporees and Webelos Woods with troops and do a good amount of camping on our own. We do our best to introduce them to the differences between Cubs and Scouts and prepare them for it. We give them a taste of the difference. I realize that some adult Cub leaders may not have much exposure to Boy Scouts and therefore make Webelos JUST a continuation of Cubs. If they follow the program, go to roundtables and put forth an effort to build relationships with local troops (as well as the troops doing their part), I don't see the Cubs considering Scouts to be geeky. They should already know what the differences are and looking forward to crossing over. I think the geekiness comes from peers outside the program.

[OldGreyEagle]

Brad Sullivan, the true scoutleader in Bushwacked will always be my hero.

 

Its not the uniform, way back there was a stigma with being in the High School Band, doesnt seem that bad anymore, and talk about Geeky Uniforms, anybody know how they changed their image?

[SR540Beaver]

OGE,

 

I was unaware that "being in the band" was no longer geeky. Interestingly enough, two of my buddies that were in band in high school were also Boy Scouts!