ACLU Grinch Strikes Again!!

[eisely]

I love this headline. Actually the school may have committed a minor indiscretion, but I would be more concerned about reading and math scores if I were a parent in this school district.

______________________

 

ACLU Asks Kansas School District To Investigate Santa

 

POSTED: 10:57 a.m. CST December 3, 2003

UPDATED: 11:02 a.m. CST December 3, 2003

 

BALDWIN CITY, Kan. -- After allegedly allowing a minister dressed as Santa Claus to discuss the meaning of Christmas with elementary school students, the Baldwin City School District is being criticized for violating the separation of church and state.

 

So the Douglas County chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union is stepping in. The ACLU has urged the eastern Kansas school district to investigate whether Baldwin City elementary schools allowed a Santa Claus impersonator to discuss Christmas with students. The red-suited visitor also reportedly referred students who were judged in need of guidance to Christian resources.

 

Superintendent Jim White said he's asked for more details about the complaints addressed in the ACLU letter sent last week.

 

White does not believe the district is violating the law. But he says Santa may not visit again.

[acco40]

My favorite editorial cartoon had a picture of Roman Centurians nailing a Santa Claus to a cross. The caption (Santa speaking) is: "No really, you've got the wrong guy!"

 

It shows how the blur between the secular Christmas (what an oxymoron) and the religious (i.e. real meaning or as some might say, original meaning) meaning of Christmas has changed how or society views the holiday.

 

(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Region 7 Voyageur]

OK here we go!

 

Christmas is a federal holiday. The United States has federal holidays that honor/remember other individuals. We honor Columbus who was either a great man or a despot depending on your point of view. We honor Washington for many reasons, a man that has some negative events in his resume. (I do to) We honor The Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. who was an ordained Baptist minister. Lincolns birthday is not a federal holiday. (presidents day is really the federal holiday of Washingtons birthday)

 

Jesus of Nazareth was a real person. I personally believe that he was both man and God. My understanding is that the Hebrew and Muslim faith tradition believe that Jesus existed. The United States holiday honors the man, not the religion. If this were not true then the ACLU would be actively working to eliminate the federal holiday observed on December 25. I have not heard of any call by any group to eliminate Christmas as a federal holiday.

 

[eisely]

Just wait. They will.

[NJCubScouter]

Region 7 Voyageur says:

 

Jesus of Nazareth was a real person. I personally believe that he was both man and God. My understanding is that the Hebrew and Muslim faith tradition believe that Jesus existed. The United States holiday honors the man, not the religion. If this were not true then the ACLU would be actively working to eliminate the federal holiday observed on December 25. I have not heard of any call by any group to eliminate Christmas as a federal holiday.

 

I disagree with part of this. Christmas is a Christian religious holiday that the United States government (and every other government in this country that I know of) has chosen to recognize as a holiday. This is quite understandable given that approximately 95 percent of U.S. citizens celebrate that holiday in some form. It does not, however, change the fact that it is a religious holiday. Neither does the fact that much of the "celebration" of Christmas (including by some non-Christians, including me, who is married to a Catholic) takes place in a secular way, revolving around the buying of things. The fact that the ACLU has not challenged Christmas as a federal holiday does not change that fact either -- it may mean that the ACLU knows how and when to pick its battles. Nor am I suggesting that Christmas should not be a federal holiday; all I am saying is that, at its core, it is a religious holiday.

 

You say that Jesus Christ was a "real person" and that other religious acknowledge that he "existed," as your basis for concluding that the holiday "honors the man, not the religion." However, the birth of Jesus is not celebrated because he was a "real person," it is celebrated by your religion, because your religion believes he is God, or the Son of God. There are many other "real people" whose birth is not celebrated by a federal holiday. That includes some religious leaders or political leaders who hold places of high honor in a particular religion: For Jews, most prominently Moses, closely followed by such as Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, King David and King Solomon. (I know, some may question the actual existence of all but the last two.) For Muslims, Mohammed -- and maybe his birthday is celebrated in some other countries, I don't know. I am not suggesting we add any holidays in this country, I am just suggesting a flaw in your reasoning that the federal Christmas holiday is non-religious in nature.

 

You mention other holidays and throw in the fact that the persons celebrated were not all perfect. However, look at the real, basic reason why we celebrate each holiday. Reduce it to one sentence and see whether that sentence suggests a secular or religious motive for the holiday:

 

George Washington: First president, military leader of the American Revolution. (Secular.)

 

Christopher Columbus: Depending on which description you want to choose: "Discoverer" of America, or Person who initiated the colonization of North America by Europeans. (Both secular)

 

Martin Luther King Jr.: Civil rights leader. (Secular. We don't celebrate his birthday because he was a minister, we do so because of his advocacy of non-violent protest to achieve civl rights.)

 

Jesus Christ: Son of God and founder of the Christian religion. (Religious.)

 

Again, I am not suggesting that any action be taken or anything, based on my conclusion. I am just saying that if you are trying to make some point based on Christmas being a non-religious holiday, I don't think it works.

[Hunt]

It seems to me that this is an easy case--heck, I'm an evangelical Christian, and I don't want a minister in a Santa suit coming into the school and referring my kids to "Christian resources." What "resources?" His church? And if you let him in, you can't keep out the guy who'd like to refer your kids to Islamic, Jewish, neo-pagan, or atheist "resources."

[Big_Dog]

Ah, NJ, you've nailed the point to one thing that is causing so much difficulty in America today...

" Nor am I suggesting that Christmas should not be a federal holiday; all I am saying is that, at its core, it is a religious holiday." (sorry, I don't know how to make this italicized)

The problem is that this country, at its' core, is a religious nation. It's laws were founded on Biblical principles - the leaders at the birth of this nation believed in God. Now, we're trying to severe the two and it's causing a multitude of problems.

I agree with Hunt that I really don't want a religion forced on me or my kids, but I think we've gone much farther than that. It's like you have to know the secret code to say anything about God in public anymore. BTW, have you ever noticed the ACLU is all about free speech unless that speech involves religion?

 

bd

 

[saltheart]

The ACLU is all for free speech...as long as it's their kind of free speech. I wouldn't miss them at all if they fell off the face of the planet.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

The ACLU defends religious speech, if it isn't governmental speech. The government shouldn't be making religious pronouncements. And as for this country being a "christian nation", you should read the Treaty of Tripoli, drafted under Washington's administration and signed in Adams' administration in 1797, which includes the sentence "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

[Big_Dog]

Merlyn,

If you're responding to me, I don't think my post said anything specific about 'Christian'. But if all you did was walk around Washington and read what is inscribed on many of the governments buildings, you would have to conclude that whoever built those buildings had a belief in God.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

And if you read the constitution, you'd find that the government believes in religious freedom, and not religious favoritism. Like you, I don't want a religion forced on me and my kids, either.

[Big_Dog]

yeah, but ain't it great that no matter what the ACLU says, we're in an organization that promotes doing your duty to God?

God Bless the BSA

 

BD

[Rooster7]

...you should read the Treaty of Tripoli, drafted under Washington's administration and signed in Adams' administration in 1797, which includes the sentence "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

 

First, there is a difference between living in a Christian nation (America) and being ruled by a Christian government (The Vatican). Second, whether its declared in government documents or not, we are a nation primarily composed of Christians. I guess it depends on how you define "Christian nation"?

 

And if you read the constitution, you'd find that the government believes in religious freedom, and not religious favoritism.

 

Excuse me. I don't believe I've have seen the phrase "religious favoritism" in the Constitution. Furthermore, these two ideas (religious freedom and religious favoritism) don't have to be mutually exclusive. I can encourage everyone in my neighbor to practice their religion, as they feel obliged to do so, and still favor my own faith over theirs. I can even encourage others to follow my faith over someone elses and still give everyone the freedom to practice whatever faith they chose.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

So I guess you'll have no quarrel with people who declare the US to be a "white nation", since a majority are white, eh?

 

I, for one, question the motives of those who say the US is a "christian nation" OR a "white nation".

[NJCubScouter]

Big Dog says:

 

BTW, have you ever noticed the ACLU is all about free speech unless that speech involves religion?

 

Actually, I have noticed the opposite. The ACLU has been involved in several high-profile cases on behalf of people or groups claiming that the government was infringing on their right to free exercise of religion. I went on their web site to confirm that, check out this page:

 

http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty/ReligiousLibertylist.cfm?c=142

 

One of the articles is about a case where Jerry Falwell filed suit against the state of Virginia, to challenge a state law banning religious organizations from becoming corporations, and the ACLU filed a brief in support of Falwell's position. (Yes, you read that right.)

 

The page linked above seems to only be about very recent actions by the ACLU, I could not quickly figure out how to get to pages where the ACLU describes cases it has handled in the past. I am sure there are a number of older cases cases filed or joined by the ACLU where they were supporting people trying to practice their religion.

 

What I have noticed is that a lot of people tend to make incorrect statements about what the ACLU stands for. (I'm not a member, though I did join for a couple of years in college until I got tired of paying the dues.)

 

In any event, the ACLU isn't really relevant to what I was talking about. I do realize that this thread is about a case involving the ACLU, but Region 7 made a point about whether Christmas is a religious holiday, which I don't think the ACLU has gotten involved in. I guess this issue was slightly off-thread, but I didn't start it, I just found it interesting so I commented on it.

 

Big Dog, it would seem that you agree with me that Christmas is a religious holiday. Right? Whether the U.S. is, or is supposed to be, a "religious nation," is an issue I have gotten into a few times in this forum and I'm not in the mood right now. Whether it was or not when it was founded, I personally don't think that the answer helps to answer any issues that are relevant today. Whatever else the Founding Fathers and Framers of the Constitution may have written (and you can find quotations going both ways on matters of religion), they also wrote the First Amendment, and it is the interpretation of the Establishment and Free Exercise clauses of that amendment -- by the courts of today -- that govern the issue discussed in the first post in this thread, and the other contested constitutional issues concerning religion. As far as I know, whether Christmas can be a federal holiday isn't one of those issues.