gay ex-scout, my loss americas gain....

[Rooster7]

CrewGirl1024,

 

I can not believe that a god fearing person like yourself, who if I'm correct is supposed "Love Thy Neighbor" is not loving thy neighbor because of their sexual preference.

 

What did I say? Did I say - Dont love the homosexual?

 

No. I said - Homosexuality is a perversion. My willingness to recognize sin (my own included) does not hinder my ability to love.

 

I know his words, and I know what is "right" and what is "wrong" but what you have to understand is that Homosexuality was put on this earth by God.

 

Does that mean all things on earth are good? Did God also put murderers, rapists, pedophiles, and sadists on this earth? If so, should we accept them like you want to accept homosexuals?

 

I am a strong believe in predestination, and I believe that God knows everything about us before we even how to wiggle our toes. And in my opinion, god is testing us all!

 

I believe in predestination as well. Except, by your interpretation, there is no such thing as sin or evil. By your interpretation, we should judge all behaviors as acceptable because God created all people and knew that they would behave in the way that they do. By your interpretation, no one can even be judge by God - because He created them to be as they are and they had no choice in their behavior. I disagree. We can recognize evil. We can ask God to change our hearts. We can conform to Gods desires and deny our own. Its true that God asks us NOT to judge people - in terms of their worthiness to be called Gods children. That is His job. But He doesnt command us to close our eyes to sinful behavior. We need to speak up and recognize sin whenever it is present.

 

The only judge of us is God.

 

Its true that God asks us NOT to judge people - in terms of their worthiness to be called Gods children. That is His job. But He doesnt command us to close our eyes to sinful behavior. We need to speak up and recognize sin whenever it is present.

 

And if we believe that homosexuality is right, and we believe that you can love anyone you feel to love without hating the rest, then you will be put before God and he wil love you for that!

 

Were not talking about love. I have no problem with two men loving one another. I love many men myself. Were talking about seeking sexual relations with someone of the same sex. Sex is not love. Its an expression of love. This expression is reserved for a man and a woman. God does not ask us to stop loving one another. But he does expect us to reject unnatural sexual desires. Not every loving relationship needs to be consummated with sexual relations. In fact, most loving relationships should not be sexual in any way.

 

It upsets me, when you say that me being a God Fearing person is moving in the wrong direction! My beliefs are my beliefs and you have no say in if I'm moving in the wrong direction!

 

I hope youre inspired to examine your faith more closely. I have been pondering my relationship with God for 35 to 40 years. Im convinced that you are moving in the wrong direction because of Gods word - not my intuition. Read His Word. Pray about it. If youre truly open to God as He really exists, then Im convinced that we will come to agreement one day.

 

Yes I do know that he is a forgiving god, and he will not let me lose faith again. He will not steer me in the wrong direction. So how dare you say I am "unwilling to love and know God!"

We are all willing to love and know God - But are you willing to love and know God even if he doesnt fit into your preconceived notion of who he is supposed to be.

 

My beliefs are MY BELIEFS!

 

Thats exactly my point. God is not about MY BELIEFS! He IS. As in, I AM. He is not who we want Him to be. He is who He is.

 

Yours are yours.

 

Not exactly. God, who I have come to accept, love, and know - does not conform to my vision of who I think He should be. He simply is who He is. I am learning to conform my heart, mind, and desires to His Will.

 

But for you to say that I am moving in the wrong direction, for "Loving my Neighbor" and supporting something I truly believe in, makes you just as bad as you say I AM!

 

I am sorry if my words disturb you. However, I would not be loving my neighbor if I told you anything different. God is Holy and righteous. Do not deceive yourself into believing that we will not be judged for our transgressions. Gods love for us is evident by the fact that He sent His son to the cross as an atoning sacrifice for our sin. Its up to us to accept that gift, to repent, and to embrace God for who He truly IS.

[NJCubScouter]

Crewgirl, if you read Rooster's post and wonder when you said some of the things he says you said, don't worry about it. He does that to me all the time. He can only refute your argument by first mis-stating it.

[Fat Old Guy]

"That means that a heterosexual who is constantly bragging openly about multiple sexual conquests or adulterous relationships may very will find that his application is rejected because he is not a good role model for the values of Scouting."

 

I wouldn't want a leader in my troop who was fooling around with the secretary or shacking up with his honey. Call me old fashioned but that's the way that I am.

 

I'd also have grave misgivings about a 40 year old adult who was jumping from bed to bed, doesn't show much judgement. Heck, nowadays it isn't too smart for a 20 year old.

[NJCubScouter]

FOG, I agree, that's what I meant -- that sort of conduct, if done "openly," would make it reasonable for a prospective leader's application to be rejected.

[Fat Old Guy]

By admitting that he's a homosexual, he's admitting that he does the things that we find unacceptable.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Define "We" ?

[Rooster7]

NJ,

 

If you want to take exception with something I've said, then state it and present your argument to me directly. You don't have to us teenaged girls as "middlemen" to pick a fight. Talk about a strategy for winning an argument - How about debating someone who isn't evening having a discussion you? Now that's clever.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Fat Old Guy]

"Define 'We' ?"

 

Last time that I checked it is a first person plural pronoun indicating speaker and at least one other person.

 

 

[Hunt]

Would everybody be comfortable if BSA said that "admitted sexual promiscuity" was a barrier to Scout leadership?

I think it's worth noting that promiscuity is a different issue from homosexuality, or even bisexuality (a bisexual can be monogamous--it just doesn't matter to him or her what sex the partner is).

[Big_Dog]

NJ,

You, of course, are correct. The answer to all of your questions is no. Understand, I had just come home from church when I read Crewgirls post and I was in a Yahweh frame of mind. I was thinking the God of Issac and Abraham. So, when she commented about knowing Gods' Word, I assumed that was the God of whom she spoke.

Yahweh has pretty much made his feelings about the act of homosexuality clear, (old or new testament)so I should have asked of which God she spoke.

I'll strive to be more precise in the future.

bd

[Hunt]

I think some of my fellow Christians could use a little gentle admonition on how to talk about gospel truth in a manner that is loving and persuasive.

1. First, it's not persuasive to say that you know the answers because you've been praying and thinking about it for years. There are plenty of people older than you who don't agree. It's also condescending.

2. It's offensive to suggest that somebody is worshipping a different God because they don't interpret Scripture the same as you. (Note: President Bush recently caught unfair flak for saying Muslims worship the same God as Christians.)

3. "The Bible says so" is not a persuasive argument to anyone who doesn't already believe the Bible is inerrant. Even among devout Christians, reasonable minds disagree about the inerrancy of Scripture--so some humility is called for when expounding on such matters.

4. It's perfectly reasonable to disagree on religious matters, and to explain why you think you're right and the other person is wrong. But when you simply announce that you possess revealed, absolute truth, your opportunity to persuade has ended.

[Big_Dog]

Hunt,

If the Bible is riddled with errors, then there is no common ground to debate this issue. If you can pick and choose what is and is not in error, then it is not of much worth. This just becomes an endless re-hashing of what you think and what I think. (it seems we have arrived there) I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and as for possessing the absolute revealed Word of God, you can buy it at Wal-mart.

I do not think I have all the answers, heck, I don't even know all the questions, and I know I'm not without sin. But without a guidebook that contains the will of God, we're just spinning our wheels.

Well, 'nuff said for me, it's back to getting lads involved in this great program that is Scouting.

 

bd

[Rooster7]

NJ,

 

It makes a lot more sense than concluding that people are intentionally doing something "wrong." I tend to think most people want to do what is right. Consider me a hopeless idealist...

 

No, youre just a hopeless liberal. There are no bad people in world, just bad chemistry. Thats a great bumper sticker. Its a nice counter argument to Guns dont kill, people do NOT.

 

but I'm in good company, I think the BSA is a pretty idealistic organization.

 

Theres a difference between striving for something that is ideal and pretending that youre living in a world full of ideal people. The BSA is guilty of the former, and I applaud them for their efforts. They are not guilty of the latter. If they were, we wouldnt have youth protection (against those other guys with bad chemistry).

 

Now, I know I will get some "flak" for not being "consistent," but I think I am being perfectly consistent.

 

NJ, you are consistent consistently wrong.

 

Hunt,

 

I think some of my fellow Christians could use a little gentle admonition on how to talk about gospel truth in a manner that is loving and persuasive.

 

Sometimes its better to be straight forward than to dance around an issue. You appear to be uncertain about what the Bible says on this subject. Perhaps some of your fellow Christians see Gods word plainly.

 

1. First, it's not persuasive to say that you know the answers because you've been praying and thinking about it for years. There are plenty of people older than you who don't agree. It's also condescending.

 

As for my years of prayer, it was not a reference to my age. While age can bring wisdom, that is not assured. My point was and is one should ponder truth for more than a few minutes or even a few days. Im not convinced that Crewgirl has done this.

 

2. It's offensive to suggest that somebody is worshipping a different God because they don't interpret Scripture the same as you. (Note: President Bush recently caught unfair flak for saying Muslims worship the same God as Christians.)

 

We are not discussing scripture that leaves much room for interpretation. Gods Word is plain on the matter of homosexuality and Im not going to pretend otherwise.

 

3. "The Bible says so" is not a persuasive argument to anyone who doesn't already believe the Bible is inerrant. Even among devout Christians, reasonable minds disagree about the inerrancy of Scripture--so some humility is called for when expounding on such matters.

 

If you dont believe the Bible is inerrant, you shouldnt claim Christianity as your faith. If my confidence in His Word makes you believe I am not humble so be it.

 

4. It's perfectly reasonable to disagree on religious matters, and to explain why you think you're right and the other person is wrong. But when you simply announce that you possess revealed, absolute truth, your opportunity to persuade has ended.

 

Reasonable people fellow believers can and do disagree on the interpretation of scripture. However, as I noted before, this matter does not leave the door open for interpretation. The Old and New Testaments clearly condemn homosexuality. If you claim to believe in the God of the Bible, then you should read the Bible and accept it as Gods Word. Otherwise, your faith is being built on a faulty foundation a foundation, which will not be consistent or trustworthy.

 

Big_Dog,

 

Amen.

[NJCubScouter]

Rooster says:

 

If you want to take exception with something I've said, then state it and present your argument to me directly.

 

I didn't know you were in charge of issuing rules for how things are to be discussed in this forum. (I thought that was someone else's job -- and he isn't the forum owner either.)

 

You don't have to us teenaged girls as "middlemen" to pick a fight.

 

Personally, I think you've crossed the line with that comment, but as always, I am happy to leave that for the assembled multitude to decide for themselves.

 

Rooster, all someone has to do is read the posts by Crewgirl and then read your response to her, in this same thread, to see that you have twisted her words and have said that she said things she never said. You do the same thing to me all the time.

 

Rooster, you are the best spokesman for the BSA's anti-gay policy that an opponent of the policy could ever possibly wish for. Please never stop.

[Rooster7]

NJ,

 

I didn't know you were in charge of issuing rules for how things are to be discussed in this forum. (I thought that was someone else's job -- and he isn't the forum owner either.)

 

Until this thread, I assumed that you were man enough to talk to me directly. I guess I was wrong. But as you have made abundantly clear - on the Internet, the rules are a bit hazy, much less enforceable, and you seem more than willing to take advantage of that fact.

 

Personally, I think you've crossed the line with that comment, but as always, I am happy to leave that for the assembled multitude to decide for themselves.

 

Perhaps if you would explain to me how I crossed the line with that comment, I could understand your point. But since youve made no point, just as an inference - I dont have the slightest idea of what youre talking about.

 

Rooster, all someone has to do is read the posts by Crewgirl and then read your response to her, in this same thread, to see that you have twisted her words and have said that she said things she never said. You do the same thing to me all the time.

 

I responded to Crewgirls post as honestly as I could. Again, try giving some specifics.

 

Rooster, you are the best spokesman for the BSA's anti-gay policy that an opponent of the policy could ever possibly wish for. Please never stop.

 

NJ, are you trying to hurt my feelings?

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)