gay ex-scout, my loss americas gain....

[Rooster7]

SM406,

 

Just a small point of contention -

 

Being obese is a state of being. It's likely that such a person is guilty of gluttony. Yet, I believe one can be obese and not have the sin of gluttony - And therefore, still be a good role model. Being overweight is not the sin Its how one achieved that end.

 

Also

 

My heart aches for the atheist and those that avowedly chose not to follow God's word. Not that Gods wrath will befall them, but because I believe they are missing out on a very special relationship with a loving and forgiving God.

 

I agree with the sentiment But it almost appears as if youre saying Gods wrath wont befall such people. I think the Bible clearly teaches that those who refuse to embrace Gods call will incur His wrath.

 

I know youre not looking for my approval BUT, just to be clear I liked your post and agreed with it.

 

[SM406]

OOooopppsss!, Sorry!!

 

SM406

[SM406]

Rooster7,

 

Thanks!

 

SM406

[acco40]

Personally, I like Bart Simpson's death bed conversion approach to religion.

 

Seriously, I'm amused at how the thread went from how Scouts are perceived as geeky to the gay debate to religion.

 

This talk about THE Bible is also amusing to me. There is quite a bit of scholarly debate about which "books" belong in the Bible, which do not, "lost" books, etc. If God(s) exist, there is no doubt he endowed us (or allowed us to evolve) with very well developed (compared to other mamals) brains capable of contemplating much of these concepts. Was it a test? For his own amusement? As children we could only grasp the world that we came directly in contact with, i.e. the world revolved around us. As we gained in wisdom, we began to realize the effect we have on other people and our environment. As we grow still further, some even begin to grasp that things exist that we can not see, touch, hear, smell or taste and begin to ask such questions as where did we come from? What happens after death? We are a special creation. Ain't life grand! We only come around once (my belief). Make the most of it.

[scoutingagain]

With Religion being discussed on so many threads it's hard to figure out where to reply and recall who said what.

 

SM406 - Great Post, I particulary like the part about not burdening ourselves with God's work.

 

NJ & Rooster - I must say I admire your conviction to each of your ideas and ability to present them.

 

And Acco, you have brought up something I have been wondering about.

 

I can accept that the Bible is God's word. But which Bible, which words. As noted the verses we read in English today were originally written by men thousands of years ago, who are not infallible, created by God and not without sin. These words have then been translated by several layers of other men (maybe women also but predominantly men) who are also subject to possible error and interpretation. If I were building a bridge, let alone a life, I would use a set of plans that were thousands of years old, translated from ancient languages several different times with a great deal of scrutiny. Not because I question the original idea of the plans, but I would wonder if the document I had in my hand today really represented the original intent of the architect.

 

I certainly don't profess to be a Biblical scholar of any kind. I find I agree with much, maybe all of what SM406 said. I hope that because I wonder sometimes if mankind may have missinterpreted God's word at some point or missinterpreted another man's interpretation and put it in print at somepoint I am not considered a heretic of some kind. How many different denominations of Christianity are there? So I assume I am not alone.

 

Acco may be right. Maybe how we interpret the Bible is a test.

 

SA

 

 

[Rooster7]

Personally, I like Bart Simpson's death bed conversion approach to religion.

 

While you say this in jest, many people do this. They try not to think about God or His expectations for them until their days are few. Why? Is it because we don't want to conform to God's Word follow His ways? If someone did this, how do you think God will respond to that kind of stubbornness?

 

Acco may be right. Maybe how we interpret the Bible is a test.

 

To what end? Those that get it right earn salvation? Those that dont are damned? I believe the Bible tells us who God is, and what He expects of us. If you believe the Bible is Gods Word, shouldnt you investigate further? Ask people that you trust which versions were translated faithfully? Ask your pastor or a theologian what they think? Or, if you dont understand what it says, then pray about it? The Bible teaches us that if we seek the truth in earnest, and not our own will, we will find the truth.

 

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.

"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Matthew 7:7-9

 

[scoutingagain]

Rooster,

 

I'm not sure if your asking specific questions of me or not. Maybe challenge is a better word than test. I agree that if there is confusion in one's mind they should seek more information. I have discussed some of this with one member of the protestant clergy in our neighborhood, but frankly, based on the information provided to my kids in Catholic religious training, get different information than they do. And my religious up bringing as a Presbyterian is a bit different than theirs. At some point maybe I will reach an epiphany and the truth will become known to me. For now I continue to seek information but this doesn't mean I don't believe in God or the Divinity of Christ. I just wonder how so many can read the same words and come to different conclusions and wonder how others can be so sure of their own convictions.

 

I do want to thank you for one thing though. The conviction you show in your faith has me examining mine more than I probably otherwise would have if I had not followed your postings in these forums.

SA

 

 

 

[Rooster7]

Scoutingagain,

 

Let me explain my previous post. Im not sure what acco40 meant when he indicated that ones interpretation of the Bible might be a test. I made the assumption (it may well be wrong) that he was trying to say - God allowed his Word to be imperfectly translated, and thus made ambiguous, so He can observe how we chose to interpret it. I disagree with this idea on two points:

 

First and foremost, I dont think God wants to make himself, or His will for us, ambiguous - a mystery. The Bible was written so we could come to know God and His will in our lives. Even without the knowledge of the Bible, I think most men recognize this truth our hearts and minds are prone to sin. An ambiguous message from God would simply encourage us to corrupt that message into something it was not intended to be.

 

Second, I think if we break away from our own self-imposed mindset of who God is, shed our fears of what that might mean, and read the Bible with a prayerful spirit, God makes His Word plain to understand. Thats not to say, all believers will come to the same understanding on all issues at the same time. Still, its been my experience that people who are truly seeking God, eventually come to an agreement as to who He is, and how He wants us to live our lives, based on His Word.

 

I do not deny the fact that there are many interpretations of the Bible. Many of which seem to contradict one another. Be that as it may be, there are trustworthy versions of the Bible. I have asked many believers about this. I can understand and relate to your question (although I dont know whether or not it was rhetorical) But which Bible, which words? If someone wants to follow God, this should be a very serious concern. In my mind, its the kind of question that God puts on ones heart when there is an awakening to Him.

 

According to the people that Ive come to trust in my walk, the King James Version, the New International Version, and the New American Standard Bible are all trustworthy translations. Great pains were taken, for both the Greek and the Hebrew, to ensure the correct English words were chosen and presented in the proper context. I do not speak Hebrew or Greek so I cannot attest to this firsthand. Of course, that fact leaves me open to criticism from someone who might question my conviction to a particular understanding of Gods Word (i.e., I cannot read or understand the original languages that were incorporated in the Bible). I cannot offer an explanation to those critics other than to say that the Holy Spirit is as real as God the Father or His son, Jesus Christ. When I have doubt - I do; I dont pretend otherwise. When I dont have doubt I dont; again I dont pretend otherwise. Rarely have I had doubt concerning a foundational issue in the Bible. When I have had doubt, I have found brothers and sisters in Christ who could provide an explanation that not only made sense, but also was affirmed by the Holy Spirit. I have no doubt that there are many non-believers on this forum who will simply shake their head indignantly at this notion. I also have no doubt that there are many believers on this forum who will nod their head in profound agreement. God is real. His Word will endure forever.

 

Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear. For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you. 1 Peter 1:13-25

 

[Achilleez]

Rooster,

 

"Second, many of the others split on interpretation not because Gods Word is not clear, but because they prefer an interpretation that allows them to believe as they want to believe as opposed to accepting Gods will. "

 

So by your logic there is only one true church that contains the only true christians and the rest of us are all on the wrong track.

 

I am astounded no one else found that statement incredibly offensive.

[Rooster7]

Achilleez,

 

So by your logic there is only one true church that contains the only true Christians and the rest of us are all on the wrong track.

 

You can be offended, but that's not what I said.

 

Basically, all I said was - the Bible is consistent...it does not contradict itself. Furthermore, I believe God reveals truth to those who seek it. These people - those who love God and embrace his Word, may be in many different churches. However, that does not mean that each of these churches (various Christian sects) know and teach the proper interpretation of God's Word. There is only one truth.

[Adrianvs]

"So by your logic there is only one true church that contains the only true christians and the rest of us are all on the wrong track.

 

I am astounded no one else found that statement incredibly offensive."

 

 

What do you propose, Achilleez? That those who believe fundamentally different things are all equally right?

[Achilleez]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

 

Do you beleive every single devout Jew, Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist is going to burn in hell?

 

If thinking otherwise condemns me to hell as well, so be it.

[Glenn]

SA,

 

I am coming in on this discussion quite late but wanted to comment on the various Bible translations. As stated earlier, I had heard the King James version is fairly reliable, along with the NIV. For old English, not only the KJV but the Duoay Rheims version is fairly accurate based on the oldest documents they had available at the time of their translation. However, my research (and no, I also do not know Greek, etc. but rely on scholars that do) has led me to believe that the RSV is one of the more reliable. (RSV-CE for us Catholics - it includes the deuterocanonical books).

 

All of these versions are then printed with various titles. For instance, the RSV-CE is published as the Ignatius Bible. So when looking for a Bible, look inside the cover for the version, not just the name of the Bible.

 

As to why there are so many versions, I understand that many of the phrases and words can be interpreted differently. One must look into the context and once you do that, the prejudice of the translator may come into play. Also, many of the newer versions try to change the wording to be gender neutral (and change the meaning of the text in my opinion - so stay away from the NRSV New Revised Standard Version).

[scoutingagain]

Glenn,

 

Thanks for the response. My original question was initially rhetorical. However I'll admit to learning a thing or two from your and Rooster's responses.

 

Adrianvs, you asked Achilleez,

 

"What do you propose, Achilleez? That those who believe fundamentally different things are all equally right? "

 

I respond with the following not necessarily to Adrianvs, but all.

 

I think we need to remember that those who believe fundamentally different things, all equally have the right to those beliefs and I don't believe, we are in a position to judge those beliefs as right or wrong.

 

We are free to choose are own beliefs and have the conviction that they are correct. That doesn't mean others are incorrect. It just means we believe something different to be true.

 

Sometimes the expression of one's own faith can sound or appear as being disrespectful of another's belief, even if that is not the intent. People of all faiths take their belief's seriously. It's one thing to say: "I firmly believe that...." versus "The only true faith is .... which is the one I believe in."

 

SA

 

[NJCubScouter]

Scoutingagain says:

 

I think we need to remember that those who believe fundamentally different things, all equally have the right to those beliefs and I don't believe, we are in a position to judge those beliefs as right or wrong.

 

We are free to choose are own beliefs and have the conviction that they are correct. That doesn't mean others are incorrect. It just means we believe something different to be true.

 

I agree with those statements, but the reason for some of the contentiousness in this forum over matters of religion (which includes the issue of excluding gay people) is that there are some people in this forum who don't seem to agree with those statements. There are people who rarely let the word "believe" get near their statements about religion, because they don't think of their religion as a matter of belief (which could be wrong), but as a matter of truth (which cannot be wrong.)

 

Of course, I could be wrong.