YMCA Drops Indian Guides/Princesses

[Adrianvs]

"So, in Boy Scouts are no secret societies, but there are?"

 

If the OA were a secret society, it would have secret membership, secret finances, secret meetings, and secret activities. As it stands, all of these things are open to non-members, and even the secret aspect (the details of ceremonies), are open to concerned parents or other individuals. It is simply a prudential judgement not to reveal the "plot" of ceremonies to those who are not members. This lessens the effect if the individual ever happens to become a member and participate in the ceremonies. But even this isn't really secret in the sense of secret societies. If you are posting about a book, movie or game, you would not want to post any Spoilers. It is much the same. If you REALLY want to know, speak to a lodge officer. I see it as a matter of respect not to inquire, however.

[Fat Old Guy]

"Ask your self why the police van is called a patty wagon?"

 

Actually, it is a "PADDY wagon" and the day is "St. PADDY's Day."

[Hunt]

From what I read, the criticism of the Indian Guides and Indian Princesses was not just that the regalia and ceremonies were unauthentic, but that they were being appropriated by non-Indians. Obviously, this would be a potential issue for OA as well, no matter how authentic it might be. I suppose the criticisms might be well-taken if what is being appropriated are the authentic ceremonies of a living religion--but I don't see it if it's primarily cultural or historic.

Note: Apparently, YMCA has been toning down the Indian elements of the program for some time, but now the Indian elements are being dropped entirely, including the word "guides."

[Fat Old Guy]

I suppose that the Pope should be outraged when a Jew plays a priest on stage or screen. How about when an Irishman portrays a Scot? Who should be outraged, the Scots or the Irish.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Have a good day(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[Rooster7]

The art of taking offense - ethnic Americans have taken this skill to new heights.

 

I agree with wingnut. I love Irish-Americans. They recognize their history - good and bad. They celebrate their culture whether someone else has gotten it right or wrong. And despite being treated as pariahs in the early 1900's (and they suffered as much as any group back then) - they've gotten over it and moved on. Their attitude (collectively speaking) is an example that others should follow. The Irish - gotta love em.

 

[eisely]

Speaking of the Irish and Notre Dame...

 

Stanford now is playing a series of games with the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame. One of those home here a few years ago, I think 1997, resulted in a controversy. I did not go to that game, but some of those who did were quite offended by the Stanford half time show that featured a drunken mockery of the Notre Dame mascot Leprechaun. I don't think anybody from Notre Dame objected, but the Stanford took a lot of heat locally.

[Hunt]

It's awfully hard to draw the line of when to be offended. I once went with a group to the LimeLight nightclub in New York--this was back in the 80's. LimeLight was a former church that had been turned into a disco--the church structure was still there, with memorials, plaques, carvings, etc., still on the walls. The activities going on were, to say the least, not appropriate for church. I felt my skin crawl, and left. I found it highly inappropriate and offensive--in a way I wouldn't have it it had been a former warehouse. I suppose an Indian might feel the same way if he saw sacred rituals being used improperly (although obviously what the YMCA and OA are doing is much more innocent).

[Rooster7]

eisely,

 

I think that says it all. Notre Dame comes to Stanford for a football game. As required by tradition, a group of college kids fulfills their obligation to harass them (undoubtedly all in good fun). Yet, who gets offended? It's not the Irish, but the local liberals. It's enough to make you want to puke green.

 

Somewhere between fighting racism in the middle of the last century, and the embracing of diversity in the new millennium, millions of Americans forgot how to laughand in particularly at themselves. Their intolerance to even the most benign or well intended is incredulous.

 

[NJCubScouter]

When these "mascot" discussions come up, I always consider myself lucky that I attended a college whose teams are the "Scarlet Knights." (Purely by coincidence, my high school had "Scarlet Knights" as well, the only change was from Scarlet and White to Scarlet and Black.) So far, no descendants of medieval knights have presented any petitions to change it. Plus, on the official signs and logos at least, the Scarlet Knight's face is completely covered, so I suppose the face under the helmet could belong whatever race, ethnicity, religion -- or gender -- that any particular observer wishes it to be.

 

Yes, that was mostly tongue-in-cheek.

[Hunt]

If the Scarlet Knight carries a sword or a lance, he (or she) will still be the target of reformers--several mascots have had to give up their muskets, etc.

[molscouter]

Eisley/Rooster,

 

As an alum of Notre Dame, I can assure you that the Stanford band's mockery of various subjects has not gone unnoticed by the ND community. The 97 performance in Palo Alto essentially implied that Irish culture consisted of drinking and starvation (the Potato Famine). However, a worse incident occurred back in 1991 during a game at Notre Dame, when they mocked Catholicism in general (I believe the music was conducted by a band member wearing a habit and waving a cross) I wasn't there, so I can't speak to the manner in which things were conducted, but from what I've been told, they weren't exactly respectful. In fact, they were been banned from ever performing at Notre Dame Stadium again.

 

There is a line between using symbols with respect and using them disparagingly, a line that has become very blurred in the modern victim mentality.

[NJCubScouter]

If the Scarlet Knight carries a sword or a lance, he (or she) will still be the target of reformers--several mascots have had to give up their muskets, etc.

 

Heh, heh, heh. Not so far, anyway. I think there are some depictions of the Scarlet Knight with a lance, but so far the Lance Control Movement has not made its presence known. I forget whether the "live" incarnation of the knight at games carries any implements of destruction.

 

Of course, that reminds me of yet one more thing that raises an "issue" today. In high school, our arch-rival team's nickname was the Eagles, leading some clever cheerleader or coach to come up with what is my favorite team cheer of all time:

 

What do we eat, what do we eat?

Eagle meat, eagle meat!

How do we like it, how do we like it?

Raw, raw, raw!

 

Let's see, what are the contemporary issues here?

 

1. Not environmentally friendly.

2. Poor food-handling practice; if one was going to eat eagle meat, it should probably be cooked.

3. Bad pun. Though very funny, at least to me, otherwise I wouldn't remember it after all these years.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I apologize up front if the language and tone of this post offends anyone, I am using hyperbole to make a point

 

Does anyone remember what the Standford Cardinal was called before they became "The Cardinal" ? (The color, not a bird or embattled Catholic Higher Echelon bureacrat)

 

The were known as The Stanford Indians, Thats who Jim Plunkett and Sonny Sixkiller played for when they attended Stanford and were Quarterbacks

 

I always thought of a Mascot as being something you wanted to emulate, the Speed and Stength of a Bear (Well, Chicago not so much, but they are comming on) The noble manner and values of a Cavalier, ETC.

 

When I think of native American Mascots, I think the intent is to emulate the noble spirit, courage, wisdom and discipline common amoung these people (Chief Noc-a-homa of Cleveland notwithstanding amoung others) However, you had to know this was comming, I can see why Native Americans are sensitive on this issue.

 

When I was a little boy, my mother taught me that if I wanted to play with something that belonged to someone else, I had to ask permission first, and then only after receiving permission could I play with some one else's stuff and I had to stop when the owner asked for his stuff back.

 

If an institution doesn't have Native Anerican's permission to use their culture, their clothes or langauge then these identifying attributes should not be used.

 

It wasnt really all that long ago when the High School in Pekin called its teams "The Chinks", it was changed awhile ago.

 

I guess maybe Cinncinnati wouldnt have minded to much if Marge Schott would have renamed her baseball team "The Nazi Pary" maybe we should learn to laugh at ourselves and the New York Airline Hijackers should take the field next year along with the Chicago Suicide Bombers. And of course, when Honolulu gets a major league baseballteam who wouldnt want to cheer for "The Sneaky Nip Attack" ?

 

 

[eisely]

NJCubScouter

 

You forgot to mention PETA. I suspect that PETA operatives are already researching abuses at your alma mater.

 

Speaking of PETA...They recently offered high schools in this area $20,000 worth of veggie burgers if the high schools would take hamburgers made of beef off of the lunch menu. I doubt that most high schools could eat $20,000 worth of veggie burgers in a year, even if they were served every day. To the best of my knowledge, nobody has taken PETA up on their offer.