YMCA Drops Indian Guides/Princesses

[Hunt]

I just learned that the YMCA has decided to discontinue the "Indian" element of its Indian Guides/Indian Princesses programs, which will now be known as Adventurers and Explorers--no more Indian regalia, chants, etc. Indian groups complained that the misuse of Indian symbols, etc., was insulting or "traumatic." Many parents, some of whom grew up with the program, are ticked off.

What do you think about this? And is this yet another issue that will be looming for BSA? If it is, what (if anything) should be done about it?

[Fat Old Guy]

Ya know, if these Injuns were smart, they'd capitalize on the obvious interest in Indians and Indian lore. Instead of complaining, they could work with the groups and help them make their stuff more authentic.

[NJCubScouter]

I had been under the impression that the YMCA had already changed the name of Indian Guides to Y-Guides, several years ago. Maybe I was misinformed, or maybe this was just something someone wanted to happen, or maybe they changed the name but kept the "Indian" regalia, chants, etc. and now those are being removed as well.

 

I don't really know anything about the program; when I was a kid, my "Y" was the YM/YWHA (Young Men and Women's Hebrew Association) and I don't think they had "Indian Guides." All I really remember doing there was swimming and some field trips in the summer. So I can't give an opinion about whether in recent years the "Indian Guides" have made sure their "Indian" references gave honor rather than offense to Native American heritage.

 

I can, however, give an opinion on the OA, which I guess would be the main impact of something like this on the BSA. My recollection of my youthful OA membership is that the intent, at least, was to honor "Indian" heritage and lore, not to insult anyone. It is my understanding that in more recent years, the BSA/OA and Native American leaders have done exactly what FOG has suggested -- worked together to make the reality match the intent, by making sure ceremonies and garb were more authentic, and in some cases discontinuing ceremonial actions and phrases that were considered so sacred that they should not be copied by the OA, or offensive for some other reason. Maybe someone with more direct current involvement with the OA can confirm or correct my understanding.

 

If there are still things that the BSA can do to make clearer that its intention is to honor Native American heritage, I hope that can be done -- rather than lose what I think is a beneficial element of the OA program.

[hops_scout]

Little bit unrelated, but then again it kind of is.....

 

The University of Illinois (the Fighting Illini:)) has been fighting to keep their mascot. Apparently some people dont like that they have an Indian who dances at basketball and football games. This guy isnt a real Indian, but does wear everything which is authentic and goes to an Indian tribe for training.

[acco40]

I always thought that New York CIty should add a professional athletic team and name them "The New York Jews" and have as a mascot a "respectful" dark skinned, large nosed, yamulke wearing, Hasidic jew. Maybe that would bring home the point to some.

 

Was it Seton or Beard who practically worshipped Indian culture and is responsible for many of early references to Indian culture into the BSA?

[Adrianvs]

I think it was Seton who idolized indian culture. He authored "The Gospel of the Redman" although Beard likely used culture references as well.

 

 

"I always thought that New York City should add a professional athletic team and name them "The New York Jews" and have as a mascot a "respectful" dark skinned, large nosed, yamulke wearing, Hasidic jew. Maybe that would bring home the point to some."

 

If the Jewish character were an historical warrior figure, I don't think it would be offensive. The New York Maccabees, perhaps? Of course, given the current trend of leftist anti-Semitism, it would likely be protested by non-Jews as a "Zionist plot." Perhaps we could go with European tribes. The New York Berserkers? I bet the Vandals would have some interesting post-game parties. At least the fans would have a good time..

[NJCubScouter]

Acco, just to make it clear, I am not talking about mascots. If you were responding to hops, ok. If you were responding to me, I think the OA is in a different category. If you disagree, that's ok, it means we only agree 99 percent of the time instead of 100.

 

Adrian, pretty funny about the Vandals. But you want to make sure that if you are at a Vandal tailgate party, they are not parked too close to the Visigoths, that could be real trouble. To say nothing of the Huns.

[Fat Old Guy]

" Perhaps we could go with European tribes. The New York Berserkers? I bet the Vandals would have some interesting post-game parties. At least the fans would have a good time.."

 

Have we forgotten the Vikings? I haven't met a single person of Scandanavian ancestry who is upset with the depection of the Vikings even though the Vikings didn't have horns on their helmets.

 

Maybe the Scandanavians should protest "Hagar the Horrible."

 

Mabye I should write angry letters every time a black comedian makes fun of white people.

[Proud Eagle]

As to anyone having current involvement in OA, I suppose I would qualify. This time last year I was finishing up a term as Lodge Chief. Though really you would need someone that works on the national level to provide information on most things relating to agreements and arangements with the various Native American tribes and nations. Probably members of the National Order of the Arrow Committee would be the best source for this. Unfortunately I don't think we have any of them here, and I don't have any personal contacts with any either.

 

I do know it has been quite some time since any major changes have taken place to the ceremonies. There may have been some minor things changed, but as far as I know all of the major elements have remained unchanged for decades. Now there are some things that were once common practice that are no longer done. Face paint for ceremonies and dancing are out except for some very unusual and special cases. Also masks and certain other things of that nature are generally out. Regalia and dance costumes are constantly being improved to better reflect what Native Americans actually used rather than what Hollywood does. Dancing, drumming, and singing during ceremonies is now handled more carefully. Usually someone will seek approval from a local tribe or other group before using these in ceremonies.

 

There are other things I would gladly discuss, and things I would discuss in more detail, but the open nature of this forum is not appropriate for that.

[Adrianvs]

FOG,

Yes yes, berserkers were a type of Viking warrior. Also let's not forget the Spartans, Fighting Irish, Cavaliers, Padres,

 

 

Proud Eagle,

It is my understanding that facepaint is prohibited above the lodge level, but is the decision of the lodge within it's program. I admit that we have used moderate facepaint during and since my time as a ceremonialist. Of course, we don't use Sioux plains outfitting either..

[OldGreyEagle]

I gotta ask why isnt this an appropriate forum for such a discussion ?

[Twocubdad]

I assume Proud Eagle is referring to some of the details of OA ceremonies. I wouldn't be approproate to discuss them in a public forum.

[eisely]

Proud Eagle is correct that OA has striven to address those parts of its program that might be deemed offensive. One major change I have not heard mentioned is the change in the OA logo. For many years the logo was the face of a chief with a bonnet, apparently based on a plains indian concept of what a chief would look like. The logo is now simply an arrowhead. Folks figured out that different groups of native americans costumed themselves differently and that the chief logo was a stereotype. Not necessarily a bad stereotype, but a stereotype.

 

Referring to Vikings: Several years ago some group of Scandinavian descent did object to Hagar the Horrible, although to no effect.

[OldGreyEagle]

So, in Boy Scouts are no secret societies, but there are?

[frank10]

You know, the Irish are the only group I know of that gets it right. Never heard one complaine about the rest of us wearing green on St. Patty's day. Not one peep about the Fightin' Irish and their mascot. Not even a word about Lucky Charms for breakfast.

 

And if your thinking that's because every one thinks of them in a positive way. Ask your self why the police van is called a patty wagon? Insert any other ethnic name and see if it flies.