Misuse of the Program

[evmori]

Requiring the membership to be religious doesn't make the BSA a religious organization. That is a membership requirement. The BSA supports many different religions & denominations. But the BSA a religious organization, I don't think so.

 

Chaplin & Chaplin aides are not required. They are optional. If they were required then maybe you would be accurate in your statement.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

FOG, Homosexuality is not the subject of the thread. others may follow you down that sideroad in order to avoid the actual topic. I will not.

 

Ed, You also didn't know about Patrol Activities, SPLs Choosing troop officers, Ages and Stages, and a myriad of other scout topics. I am not surprised by this one.

 

The point of the thread stands. Nothing in the BSA program prohibits a church from using their scout unit to advance the mission of their religion. This is not misuse of the BSA program it is the use of the BSA program.

 

No one who disagrees with that point has yet to provide a shred of evidence to support their opinion.

 

Bob White

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Hunt]

OK, I'll belabor this point some more, but just because I find it interesting.

I'm not too troubled by the idea that BSA is a religious organization--but if it is, it is an ecumenical one--about as ecumenical as you can get and still be religious.

Thus it's my opinion that a particular CO shouldn't use uniformed scouts to evangelize for a specific religion--I'm not arguing that it's against BSA rules to do this, but that it would be a misleading practice for a church to use Scouts to get "a foot in the door" to evangelize people who wouldn't even answer the door if was clear that the visitors were from Church XYZ. There may be lots of other situations in which that potential to mislead (and thus, in my view "misuse" the program) wouldn't exist,such as having uniformed scouts go caroling, or serve in a church-sponsored soup kitchen, or the like.

[evmori]

"No one who disagrees with that point has yet to provide a shred of evidence to support their opinion."

 

And those who agree haven't provided the same.(This message has been edited by evmori)

[Fat Old Guy]

"FOG, Homosexuality is not the subject of the thread. oth

ers may follow you down that sideroad in order to avoid the actual topic. I will not."

 

Bob "I don't live by the Scout Law" White, avoids the point by pretending that it doesn't exist.

 

 

[Fat Old Guy]

"I'm not arguing that it's against BSA rules to do this, but that it would be a misleading practice"

 

There are those among us who believe that if it isn't specifically against BSA policy that it must be okay.

[Hunt]

Actually, I think the argument is that if the BSA doesn't prohibit it, it's up to the CO to decide how to use the program--and I have no particular problem with that idea. My argument, though, is that it would be morally wrong for the CO to use uniformed scouts to evangelize, because it's misleading to the targets. (Note: there are some religious--in my book, cult--groups that allow and use deception in evangelization.)

You'd think BSA would want to discourage this--you wouldn't want a uniformed scout telling a person of another religion that he's going to Hell if he doesn't convert. Maybe it just hasn't happened enough to warrant BSA saying anything about it.

[NJCubScouter]

FOG says:

 

No where is it explicitly stated what the values of BSA are. Those values must be inferred and interpolated from other statements by BSA. Hmmmm. . . now just where does it say in those statements that homosexuals are not good role models?

 

Funny you should ask. It doesn't say it anywhere. Of course, this is a poor example of what you are talking about anyway, because the anti-gay thing cannot really be "inferred" or "interpolated" from the Oath or Law, either. Other things can be, though many of them are right in the Handbook in the descriptions under the points of the Oath and Law.

 

By the way, any time you want to hang a slow change-up over the middle of the plate like this, feel free. I can't hold up, even when Umpire Bob says the count is 3-0.

[dsteele]

"The values we seek to instill are those found in the Scout Oath and Law."

 

From the Mission Statement of the Boy Scouts of America.

 

NJ is within his rights to question how those values are interpreted and I am within my rights to disagree with him.

 

The values, however, are stated -- in the Scout Oath and Law.

 

DS

[Fat Old Guy]

NJCubDude swings mightily and misses!

 

" because the anti-gay thing cannot really be "inferred" or "interpolated" from the Oath or Law, either"

 

Sure it can, ever heard of "morally straight"?

 

By the way, Umpire Bob is blind.

[Fat Old Guy]

dsteele asserted, "The values, however, are stated -- in the Scout Oath and Law."

 

Not really, the Law is simply a list of characteristics.

[dsteele]

Perhaps it's time for a bit of back-to-basics. Below is from BSA publication BSA Mission Statement and Purpose #14-614C

 

"The BSA Mission Statement and Purpose

MISSION STATEMENT AND PURPOSE

The mission of the Boy Scouts of America

is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices

over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values

of the Scout Oath and Law.

 

SCOUT OATH

On my honor I will do my best

to do my duty to God and my country

and to obey the Scout Law;

to help other people at all times;

to keep myself physically strong,

mentally awake, and morally straight.

 

SCOUT LAW

A Scout is Trustworthy

Loyal

Helpful

Friendly

Courteous

Kind

Obedient

Cheerful

Thrifty

Brave

Clean

Reverent

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The purpose of this corporation shall be to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in Scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods which are now in common use by Boy Scouts.

 

Federal Charter, sec. 3.

 

One of the goals of the Boy Scouts of America is to provide, through chartered organizations, a program for boys, young men, and young women designed to encourage them to be faithful in their religious duties, build desirable qualities of character, train and involve them in the responsibilities of participating citizenship, and develop in them personal fitness.

 

Special emphasis will be placed in assisting the home, religious groups, and schools in achieving success in the development of abiding values in the lives of young people.

 

All programs will be directed toward helping to develop the full potential of each member."

 

Those aren't my words. I do agree with them, although I'm not the author.

 

I apologize for my earlier mis-quote, which is of minor difference from the one I plucked and planted.

 

DS

 

 

[NWScouter]

BW,

You skipped a part of the declaration of religious principles: Where a Scouting unit is connected with a distinctly religious organization, no members of other denominations or faiths shall be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly peculiar to that organization.

Scouting being a religious organization, the definition of religious: adjective 1. relating to religion: relating to belief in religion, the teaching of religion, or following the practices of a religion

2. believing in a higher being: believing in, and showing devotion or reverence for, a deity or deities

The definition of religion: 1. religion beliefs and worship: peoples beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life

2. religion particular system: a particular institutionalized or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine

3. personal beliefs or values: a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by

 

You may be able to say that scouting falls under the second definition of religion above but to classify as a religious organization to most people would mean that BSA prescribed to a set body of doctrine. The BSA has supported the scout religious training but it non sectarian and has no say in what a Scout believes beyond his belief in god however he, his parents and his faith define that.

Even the above quote you find by inference that Scouting is not a religious organization.

 

 

 

[Bob White]

This definition of "religious" fits the BSA. "2. believing in a higher being: believing in, and showing devotion or reverence for, a deity or deities"

 

As a member Of the Boy Scouts of America you are required to accept the existence of God and to do service to Him. Who your God is, by what name and how you worship Him is left open to the member. This stance by the BSA is accepted and endorsed by nearly every religion in the world.

 

While not requiring any member to belong to a formal religion, by requiring the acceptance and serving of God, Scouting is religious.

 

So for a church, which sponsors a scout unit or units, to use it's scouting program in performance of that churches beliefs in duty to God is not abuse. As you and I both pointed out the church cannot require unit members who are not church members to participate in that activity, but many scout units are made only of members from the charter organization. This is not abuse of the program as it was characterized by a few.

 

Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fat Old Guy]

"The purpose of this corporation shall be to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in Scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods which are now in common use by Boy Scouts."

 

Based on this statement alone, the KKK, Black Panthers and the IRA would be good Charter Partners.