Do Leaders need to Follow?

[Bob White]

Lots of them Ed, but you wouldn't recognize their names. They are boys who have come through the scouting program in units that I have served. They are anxious immature teenagers with limited attentions spans, and no little or no leadership experience who we teach the skills of leadership to.

 

It's a shame you didn't think of a similar group.

 

Bob White

[evmori]

And these immature kids followed what you taught them and became good leaders.

 

It's a shame you ASSUMED I didn't think of this group.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[OldGreyEagle]

I may be getting in over my head here, but as I remember history, our country has had a few leaders who didn't follow directions well and was associated with at least one from outside this country. The first one I thought of was Gen. George Patton. A superb general and his men, by most accounts loved him, but Ike sure had his hands full trying to "control" him. Ike had similar problems with the English General Montgomery, his men loved Montie, but Montie had a thing for authority, he didnt like being told what to do, just like Patton.

 

Then in the Korean War (or police action if you prefer) President Truman had a run in with MacArthur. Seems Mac wanted it one way and the commander in chief another. And Mac was sent packing because he wasnt a follower.

 

If we go back to the "wild west" days one comes across the exploits of General George Armstrong Custer. Now here is a guy with whom the "uniform police" would have had a field day with. He never wore a uniform he didnt think he could embellish. And I think he had problems taking direction as well. Something about staying put, dont split your forces et al. (hey DSTEELE more latin)

 

Now, these are all in the past and military, to move to the present day I cite Jimmy Johnson, he of the hair that wouldnt move if a Hurricaine was comming through. He had what might be termed a fairly sucessful run as coach of the Dallas Cowboys he didnt and doesnt take direction well either. Bill Pacells, current coach of the Cowboys may define the term iconoclast, he dont take nuttin' from nobody either, yet the renown free spirit Keyshawn Johnson says Parcells is the best coach he ever played for.

 

Mike Holmgren, late of the Green Bay Packers and now of the Seattle Seahawks reached the Super Bowl in Green Bay, but didnt like the fact he has to share the lime light with Ron Wolfe. He went to Seattle where he could have all the power.

 

And finally, in college basketball, the term Icon has to immediatley have am image of Bobby Knight flash across your brain. He is one of the most successful coaches of the modern era, he is able to get more out of the talent he has than most anyone else. I heard a saying, "he can beat you with his, and beat you with yours". Bobby never took any direction that he didnt want to. Yet again, most of his players love him.

 

My conclusion? its best to learn to follow, as most of us wont ever reach the elevated status of the people mentioned above, but there are many examples of superb leaders who dont have sparkling records of following.

 

But then, are we discussing history and sport or the BSA program, I am confused.

[Bob White]

Ed when you originated this cliche you were refering to patrol members following patrol leaders. Now You use the term "following" in place of "learning".

 

Choose a point of reference so we can have a balanced discussion.

 

Bob White

[evmori]

Bob,

Following can be accomplished by learning and learning can be accomplished by following. The words are interchangeable.

 

OGE,

All good examples! Were the people in your examples good followers prior to being leaders?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[SM406]

I am not sure if the Lone Scout program is still around (I believe it is). If it is how would this cliche' hold up in this program?

 

SM406

[OldGreyEagle]

I know Bobby Knight has been a raspscallion ever since he coached at Army. Custer graduated at the bottom of his Westpoint class and was courtmartialed for going AWOL. Patton defined the term "full of himself". Dont think any of them were a good follower

 

The rest I am not sure of, I said I may be getting in over my head, and may be I am. I solicit further comments from anybody who knows more about these people

[NJCubScouter]

SM406, you ask an interesting question about the Lone Scout program (which I believe does still exist, I just found a fact sheet for it on the BSA's official web site), but I think an argument can be made that a boy in the Lone Scout program is probably not getting the full benefit of the BSA program anyway. I think Lone Scouting exists as a last resort to allow boys who for whatever reasons cannot have access to a troop or pack to participate in Scouting. Most of all, the boy is not participating in the patrol method, and the issue of "leadership" as discussed in this thread, and the patrol method, go hand in hand. I think everybody would agree with that, right? (Boy, I almost always get in trouble making statements like that, but yet I make them anyway...)

[NJCubScouter]

Hmmm. I guess what I should have said is that, Most of all, the Lone Scout is not getting the benefit of the patrol method OR the leadership development method. I do realize that they are two different methods, but they are practiced in conjunction with each other. I also realize that, using modern methods of communication, a Lone Scout could participate with other boys to some, but I don't think the boy is getting the full application of these methods as they are intended.

[Bob White]

So Ed, let me get this straight. Today you are arguing against something with me that only yesterday you agreed with OGE was true. Why are you not arguing with OGE?

 

I'll be honest Ed, you make my head hurt.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Eagledad]

Good Morning All

 

>>but I don't think the boy is getting the full application of these methods as they are intended.

[evmori]

Not at all Bob. I agreed with what OGE posted. I still feel the same way. Don't assume and take two Tylenols.

 

OGE,

As for Bobby Knight - he is successful but I don't know if you waould classify his as a good leader. You don't need to be a good leader to be succseeful. And Custer well I think speaks for himself. Patton on the other hand might have been a good follower while at West Point.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Zahnada]

OGE,

 

You mention some great names in that post. They were definitely some extraordinary and great people.

 

However, are they necessarily good leaders just because they are good at what they do? I apologize that my knowledge of some of those people is very vague so I can't address your post more thoroughly.

 

But let's start with The American Caesar. My favorite old soldier who would never die, General MacArthur. He was a great general and a brilliant man. And he was a great leader in rebuilding Japan and during WWII, but he followed orders during both. Korea was a different MacArthur. The Pentagon (his leaders) didn't trust him because he couldn't follow orders. They started going past him and sending orders through General Ridgway. MacArthur's inability to follow may have resulted in the Chinese entering the war, the war lasting three more years, and thousands of soldiers dying. Naturally, this is all speculation because I can't know what would have happened if there were no MacArthur, but I've read many reports that agree with this assessment. Basically, he ignored the Joint Chiefs and approached the Yalu River with American troops which ticked off the Chinese.

 

So, was this good leadership? The tricky part is that he was an excellent leader most of the time. But when he started not following, things went bad. So I would say that a person only sets themselves up for destruction if they try to lead without being capable or willing to also follow.

 

This doesn't answer the question of whether being a follower is a sort of prerequisit to leadership. I would argue that although rising to the rank of Five Star General of the Army is mostly political, Mac (and every other military man mentioned) would have to be a good soldier. Nobody would promote a man if he wasn't willing to follow orders. So in the case of the military, I think the set up of rank advancement pretty much makes following a requirement. A man must be a soldier before he can be a general (not necessarily front line soldier, but someone who takes orders and follows them). And obvious exception is someone like Caesar. So with that in mind, I'll restrain from making any definitive statements.

[SR540Beaver]

I did a Google search on the words "leadership, followership, qualities" and came across an organization called "weLEAD Inc". This is what weLEAD has to say about themselves, "We are chartered as a non-profit organization dedicated to advance the

understanding and education of organizational and personal leadership. weLEAD is committed to the ideal that great leaders are forged by knowledge, opportunity and experience. We also affirm that leadership qualities are potentially available to everyone and we seek to promote positive leadership development in organizations, communities and individuals. We are an organization developed by leaders, for the benefit of other leaders worldwide. Most of our content is provided by a variety of individuals who desire to encourage sound leadership principles." They have some intersting articles concerning followership and how it relates to leadership. In order to keep this post short, I will provide just the website address and the first paragraph of each article. If you are interested, you can go there and read the articles.

 

http://www.leadingtoday.org/Onmag/marchapril03/follow32003.html

 

The Art of Followership

 

Leaders can only exist and accomplish extraordinary goals because they have supportive followers! Both need each other to achieve the groups vision and established mission. Unfortunately, the term to follow or follower has gained a negative connotation in western society. Some sneeringly use the epithet follower to label an individual as one who is passive, inferior or without creativity. In reality, nothing could be further from the truth. Followers make things happen and thereby gain the valuable skills needed to grow themselves into leadership positions. Ira Chaleff, author of The Courageous Follower: Standing Up to and for Our Leaders, correctly argues that it is essential for our culture to change this negative perception of followers into a positive evaluation.

 

In the study of leadership theory, the word followership often defines those who acknowledge the central leader(s) as a source for guidance, motivation and authority. However, to a certain degree, all individuals are leaders and all are followers. Everyone in the modern workplace shares in at least some leadership role or responsibility and even a CEO may demonstrate followership within a relationship with the Board of Directors!

 

http://www.leadingtoday.org/Onmag/marchapril03/follow42003.html

 

Good Followership Qualities Part 1

 

This month, we will discuss some of the individual qualities of good followership. These qualities help the follower to be more effective and prepare them for future positions of leadership. Learning to serve and follow others helps one to develop the empathy and humility needed for superb leadership. These followership guidelines are based on taking personal responsibility, maintaining trust and credibility and remaining true to your deeply felt convictions.

 

http://www.leadingtoday.org/Onmag/may03/follow52003.html

 

Good Followership Qualities Part 2

 

In part 2 of Good Followership Qualities, we continue to discuss the traits that promote outstanding followership behavior and prepare one for future leadership roles. Before reading this tip we encourage you to read the March 2003 weLEAD Tip of the Month entitled, The Art of Followership and the April 2003 weLEAD Tip of the Month entitled, Good Followership Qualities Part 1.

[SM406]

I was headed in your direction NJCubScouter and Eagledad, with my thoughts. A Lone Scout could still learn leadership skills and apply those skills by providing leadership to service projects for the Life through Eagle ranks; I was just having a brain cramp trying to see where he would have the opportunity to learn leadership by being a follower. Great thread on the nuances (or is it nuisances) of leadership.

 

SM406