Do Leaders need to Follow?

[Zahnada]

A topic was started in another thread that really interested me, but didn't get much discussion. Personally, I find the leadership of scouting to be one of the greatest merits in the program. It is one of my main interests.

 

Some people love the quote, "Good leaders must first be good followers" (or some variation of the quote). What does this quote mean to you? Do you agree with it? How does it apply to scouting?

[Bob White]

Part of leadership is "representing the group". In most cases that is a two-way street where you represent those above you in the chain as those below you. There are times when you are the lead dog and every decision is from your desk. So do leaders follow others, I do not see it that way. Good leaders understand the vision, goals and methods of those he serves from one direction and is able to share those things with those he serves in the other direction in a way that gets the job done and keeps the group together. He doesnt follow he distributes the action and responsibilities.

 

Are you a follower of your State Senator? I hope you do not see yourself in that light. Your Senator is a peer whom you chose to represent you.

 

Is a patrol member a follower of the Patrol Leader, no. He is a teammate, a peer who was elected by the patrol to represent them. His job is to help make plans on behalf of the wishes of his patrol and then to help get the job done and keep the group together through the use of leadership skills.

 

In my opinion the quote you site is a meaningless clich that has no practical application to scouting or any leadership responsibility.

 

Bob White

[Hunt]

I think "follower" has a negative connotation. Perhaps a better quote is the one from Mark 10: 44---"whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be the servant of all."

[Adrianvs]

"Now here is a good warrant,"

Cried Alfred, "By my sword;

For he that is struck for an ill servant,

Should be a kind lord.

 

"He that has been a servant

Knows more than priests and kings,

But he that has been an ill servant,

He knows all earthly things.

 

"Pride flings frail palaces at the sky,

As a man flings up sand,

But the firm feet of humility

Take hold of heavy land..."

 

-G.K. Chesterton in "The Ballad of The White Horse."

 

 

The man who has never seen or admitted an authority above himself and thus never been in the position to follow is a dangerous and ineffective leader. Another quote comes to mind:

 

"'Do you realize what I have done for you? You call me "teacher" and "master" and rightly so, for indeed I am. If I, therefore, the master and teacher, have washed your feet, you ought to wash one another's feet. I have given you a model to follow, so that as I have done for you, you should do also.'"

 

Just as the master must know how to be a servant, the leader must know how to be a follower. The leader understands "the vision, goals and methods" but he does not cognize them directly. He has learnt them from his mentors; he followed his leaders.

 

"Is a patrol member a follower of the Patrol Leader, no." While the reciprocal relationship between Patrol Leader and member is true and appreciated, the labeling of one person as a leader without implying that there are followers is illogical. Perhaps this is a following of example rather than orders. That doesn't mean that there are no followers. In fact, it CANNOT mean that there are no followers. What makes a leader is the presence of followers. Otherwise, he is just going about his ordinary business. What makes a good leader is 1. Who he himself is following, and 2. How well he understands the role of the follower. This may be from good or bad experience, but the poor follower is unlikely to be a good leader.

 

Cliche? Perhaps. But there are a lot of cliches in Scouting. "A scout is Trustworthy...Loyal...Helpful...Friendly...Courteous...Kind...Obedient...Cheerful...Thrifty...Brave...Clean...Reverent.

 

Besides, how can a Scouter demonstrate obedience if he does not posess the property himself? By reciting the word. By pointing to the word in the current handbook? What is a handbook if we do not follow the authors?

[Adrianvs]

From your posts, Bob, I have seen that you have an thorough understanding that a leader is not just someone who gives orders. Likewise, you should realize that a follower is not just someone who obeys orders. Our modern society has exhaulted the word "leader" while applying a negative connotation to the word "follower." The problem is that one is a logical compliment to another. One may be a leader in one situation and a follower in another. I doubt that one should be a leader or a follower in all situations. Just as the word teacher and learner are both words with positive connotations, so too should be leader and follower. I submit that a teacher should be a good learner. Should the same not be true for leaders?

 

One a related note, I've been interested in the life of Teddy Rooseveldt for some time. One thing about him has always struck my mind as the image of a good leader. When Rooseveldt was commander of the Rough Riders, he never said, "Charge!!" He would say, "Follow me!!"

 

Following is imitation of the leader. A true leader has followers. A false one has servants.

 

"Follow me."

[NWScouter]

Are you a follower of your senator, no, a senator is not a leader in a technical sense unless he holds leadership in the senate an then only to his fellow senators and then maybe only to members of his own party. He is a legislator, a representative of the people. Now a governor or president is a leader, he has executive responsibilities. He must take actions and give orders. A legislator may be able to get things done but he in end cant tell a government employee to do something.

The patrol leader is first and foremost a leader. He is peer of fellow patrol members but they have elected him to lead them. With that election they have given them their promise to be followers of his. Yes he has to use the skills of leadership, which are direction, coaching and all the others we talk about in training but has to lead them to complete their task. He only acts tangentially as a representative of them at the Patrol Leaders Council.

Follower has taken on poor connotation, no one seems to want to be a follower. No one wants to be thought of as a blind follower. Another is similar that everyone wants to be above average, by definition half of us are below average. Most of the time we are followers.

One of the goals in Scouting is instilling good citizenship and part of that is being a follower. One complaint that Scouters and parents have about the first year patrol, they say is a lack of leadership in first year Scouts. It not that but the difficulty of the new Scouts to be followers. I was talking with a fourteen year old Senior Patrol Leader at church last Sunday, he was complaining how hard it was to get the other Scouts to follow. He dad was trying hard not to laugh. Dad said what goes around comes around. His son wasnt the best to support previous leaders.

 

[evmori]

Those who can't follow will be ineffective leaders. I don't think you can expect people to follow a person as a leader if that person didn't do the same when they were led.

 

I think Adrianvs and NWScouter put it best.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

 

[Bob White]

"Those who can't follow will be ineffective leaders."

 

Show us evidence of that. If a person is taught the skills of leaderhip by someone who knows how to teach them, and they are given the opportunity to practice, then there is no reason for them not to be able to lead. The scouting program has 93-years of experience doing that very thing.

 

"I don't think you can expect people to follow a person as a leader if that person didn't do the same when they were led."

 

What a shame to not believe that with proper training and opportunity people can change and grow. Happily the scouting program does not share that attitude and develops young leaders every day.

 

"Train them, Trust them, Let them lead."

William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[NWScouter]

Bob,

What kind of support will leader get if his followers see that the leaders is not supporting leaders of his. If a Patrol Leader does not set the example in following the leadership of the Senior Patrol Leader how can he expect his patrol members to follow his.

 

[Bob White]

NWScouter, you have the program backwards!

 

The Patrol is not there to support the Patrol Leader. The PL is there to support the Patrol.

 

The PL is not a follower of the SPL. The SPL is a support person for the PL.

 

The SPL does not follow the Scoutmaster. the Scoutmaster serves and supports the junior leaders.

 

You and Ed seem to want to have Boss/Follower relationships, and that is not what leadership is about. Certainly that is not how the scouting program was EVER designed to work.

 

There are no followers. "Follow me Boys" was a Disney movie not a BSA training video. We serve others to help them succeed.

 

This notion of "you cannot lead to you learn to follow" is a crutch used by some Scoutmasters as a way to avoid having to follow the program. It is soon followed by the phrase, "The Handbook only recommends it, it doesn't say you have to do it". Then the tri-fecta is completed with the attitude, "I tried it once and it didn't work".

 

"Those who say it cannot be done should stay out of the way of those who are doing it."

 

Bob White

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

1st off why is this thread so wide? Makes it hard to read & I have a 21" monitor!

 

NWScouter hit it on the head. If a patrol member never listens to his PL how - when he is elected PL - does he expect the patrol to listen to him? It won't happen with kids. Adults maybe but not kids.

 

Bob,

You seem to think this is totally wrong. DO you have any examples of a poor follower being an excellent leader?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[KoreaScouter]

All of us, even the Chief Scout Executive, are both leaders and followers, simultaneously. We lead those in our units for whom we are responsible, and follow the guidance, direction, and inspiration (hopefully) of those to whom we are responsible. Again, and importantly, we are doing both at the same time. Can someone be a good leader and a lousy follower? Maybe, but that's not the way to bet. In my experience, leaders get to become and remain leaders by first becoming and remaining good followers.

 

Also in my experience, the notion of setting a good example is incredibly relevant here. The people you're leading (adults and youth) are skilled observers. They will do what you do, good or bad. They have very sensitive hypocrisy meters, which will peg if you insist they follow the rules but do not do so yourself. In our military working dog business, we have an expression: "What goes down the leash comes up the leash." In other words, the attitude, expectations, and standards of the handler are felt and understood by the dog, and directly reflected in the dog's performance. Obviously, more complicated with human-to-human relationships, but the point's valid.

 

What BW's talking about is the notion of "servant leadership", which is a valid concept that is embedded in the styles of many of our best leaders, regardless of field of endeavor.

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

I was going to say something, but KoreaScouter just said most of it a lot better than I would have.

 

What I wold add is that it seems to me that the "debate" here is largely a matter of semantics. I don't think everybody is using "follower" in the same way. Some seem to be using "follower" simply to mean "non-leader," and I don't think it is objectionable in that way. "Follower" does not necessarily imply an overly hierarchical, "command"-driven style of leadership. It does not preclude the kind of "first among equals" and "representative" style of leadership that I think most of us would agree, is what the BSA is trying to achieve.

 

Just out of curiosity, I did an Internet search to see what, if anything, the BSA has to say about this subject. The first thing I found is very interesting. It is one of the requirements (section IV) for the Venturing Silver Award. It says:

 

Leadership

 

Introduction

 

Leadership is a cornerstone of the Venturing Silver Award. As you work on the Silver Award, you will experience many new things, learn many new skills, and learn to serve others. But to effectively take advantage of all those newly-learned skills and experiences, you must know how to effectively lead. It is true that some people are born with some natural leadership ability, but the best leaders develop leadership sills and continue to expand and hone these skills throughout their lives.

 

We all get the opportunity to be followers and leaders. It takes skill to be a good follower, too, but in this section, you will concentrate on developing leadership skills and implementing those skills as a leader.

 

Requirements:

Successfully complete the Venturing Leadership Skills Course.

Successfully serve for at least six months in an elected or appointed crew, district, or council leadership position. Since leadership is a form of service to others, don't be afraid to ask your followers, those you serve, how you are doing. If you don't have an occasional assessment of your progress, you might not improve. Learn to value the opinion of others. This must be in addition to the leadership requirement in the Venturing Gold Award.

 

Isn't that interesting? In speaking to the prospective leader, the requirements use "your followers" and "those you serve" as synonyms of each other. It also uses "follower" several other times, and not as a "bad word."

 

I do realize that these are the requirements for one program, and I did not immediately come across anything for Boy Scouts specifically, but it seems to me that the "principles of leadership" applicable to Venturing would not be any different than those applicable to a Boy Scout troop.

[NJCubScouter]

Also, check out these web sites which discuss "followers" in the context of BSA leadership training. I realize that these are NOT official sites. It does appear that the relevant statements in the first site MAY be derived from BSA training materials. The second site seems to be entirely the author's own understanding, but it seems logical.

 

http://www.troop5psc.com/wbleader.html

 

http://scouter659.htmlplanet.com/custom.html

 

After reaching the second site, click on "Troop JLT Course Page Four" on the left side, which has the relevant material. I did not link to that page directly because there is a message on it that seems to say not to.

[Bob White]

The problem here is one of attitude and philososphy. The phrase that Zahnada used to begin this thread has been used in more than one post by a poster as an excuse to deny open elections of younger scouts, avoiding the use of New Scout Patrols and as a reason for using mixed patrols. He has made it clear that he believes younger scouts incapable of leaderhip until they learn to be good followers.

 

The effort being made by some on this thread is to rationalize not following the program through an academic dissection of the role of "follower". It is a dodge pure and simple.

 

They wish to avoid the fact that developing leaders is the role they chose as Scoutmaster. By not seeing new scouts as leadership potential they releive themselves of their reponsibility to train and to follow the program. Because they can prove through cliche's that new scouts cannot lead. Never mind the fact that the BSA has almost 100 years of proving otherwise.

 

I accept the BSA philosophy of servant leadership which is taught in both basic and advanced leadership courses in the BSA. I see "follower" as members of the patrol who we develop as followers of the program. If the scouts I serve feel they are following me then I have done my job incorrectly. If they follow my example of scouting I have succeeded. To some this may seem like semantics, but there is an important distinction there. I would hope that the same methods and characteristics they emmulate can be seen in all the other adult and junior leaders in the troop. We do not want the scouts to follow us, we want them to follow scouting, to join with us in sharing the values of the BSA program.

 

Some posters make it quite evident that in "their" troop, things are done "their" way.

No New Scout Patrol no matter what the troop make up is

No leaders 12 or under

SM assigned troop offices

Persons other than committee members on BORs

Attendance limits to determine Scout Spirit

Assigned Merit badges at summer camp

Merit badge classes for troop meetings

Pages of troop rules

The list goes on..

 

That's fine if that's the only way you can get the job done. But be honest with yourself and others. Get your own uniform (use all those "optional" pieces you wish existed) and call it by a different name, because it is not Scouting.

 

If we allow this thread to summarize that a scout must first be a good follower before he is allowed to lead, you will give license to these kinds of adult leaders to rob boys of a real scouting experience.

 

Bob White