GrayFox Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Who has a vote at troop committee meetings? This quote is from an old guidebook and the current version seems to avoid the subject completely. Do SM's and ASM's have a vote or not? The "Troop Committee Guidebook", page 59, states: "The committee meeting is attended by all committee members and the Scoutmaster." "The Scoutmaster (ergo, Assistant Scout Masters) is not actually a member of the troop committee, and has no vote." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 How you organize your committee is up to you but no votes are needed. The Committee Chair is in charge and can make decisions but that doesn't seem to be the way that it works most of the time. We allow all registered adults to attend committee meetings and vote but we have the same six or so adults at nearly every meeting. I suppose that if an adult wanted to pay their $10 to get the right to vote, they could do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nldscout Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 GrayFox, If your looking for the book answer, you read it right. Uniformed leaders are not committee members and have no vote. If your looking for how most troops do it, its probably like FOG says, all registered adults present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrayFox Posted November 13, 2003 Author Share Posted November 13, 2003 The problem is that the definative answer is in an old revision and the most recent publication is silent on this issue. The "book" essentially has no answer to this one that I have seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Committee members can and often do were uniforms, so to say uniformed leaders have no vote is incorrect. The troop committee is made of committee members and not Scoutmasters or Assistant Scoutmasters. The line you posted "The Scoutmaster (ergo, Assistant Scout Masters) is not actually a member of the troop committee, and has no vote." is the only place that the word vote is used in the Committee handbook. The istructions are that the Committee chair gives assignment to the committee members and they report their progress at the committee meetings. There is nothing in the souting program that suggests a troop committee operates by a majority vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 "Committee members can and often do were uniforms, so to say uniformed leaders have no vote is incorrect." We have an ASM who insists on using the term "uniformed leaders" which sticks in my craw because 90% of the Committee wears a uniform (or parts of it =:-o ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrayFox Posted November 13, 2003 Author Share Posted November 13, 2003 I gave up on uniforms a long time ago, too. I just want them to agree on who can vote on committee issues and who cannot. The scouts are less trouble than the adults. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proud Eagle Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 I find this issue to be interesting in a somewhat indirect way, since it does not directly relate to me. I would strongly advise the troop to formally set the membership of the committee. The position of committee member exists for a reason. Otherwise committee meetings turn into adult leader meetings, or parents meetings. Neither of those seem to be particularly capable of doing the job assigned to the Troop Committee. I would suggest that the Troop Committee, by the very nature of being a committee, must operate according to parliamentary procedure (at least in principal, if not in specific technical details). Parliamentary procedure calls for action by majority vote in certain circumstances. It would seem that there is no need to specify the means by which a committee operates, because that is fundamental to the nature of committees, unless otherwise SPECIFICALLY provided for. The earlier discussion about approving tour permits indicates that this is the case. If the Chairman has the full authority to make decisions for the committee then only the Chairman's signature should be accepted for tour permits and all other official documents. If, however, the committee, as a body, has the power of approval, then any committee member could be able to act as a witness to what the committee's decision was. The Chairman would still be responisble for organizing the members of the committee, running meetings, and ensuring that administrative and organizational matters are cared for. I have not been trained in these matters. This is just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 "I have not been trained in these matters. This is just my opinion" Think about that Proud Eagle. Wouldn't it a good idea to get some facts prior to forming an opion? It's fine to have an opinion, but without some some background information as a base how can you build an opinion on top of it? The troop is not a business, its a club. The committee does not approve tour permits. The tour leader and any committee member sign it. The only adult registration available within a uinit is as COR,a SM or ASM, A Committee chair and a committee member. The program has already determined that the committee is made of the CC and at least two committee members. So you see the program has already determined who is on the committee. Take a few minutes to familiarize yourself with the unit operation and you will find that most of your concerna are already addressed by the BSA program, units simply need to get trainined and follow the program. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eisely Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 All of the statments about ASM's and the SM not being members of the committee are correct. BSA seems to envision the committee as performing two functions; (1) supporting the program and (2) providing oversight of the program as delivered by the SM and the ASMs. Most committees operate by consensus and do not take formal votes. However, situations may arise where there is strong disagreement and votes are necessary. This is where it becomes critical to understand who votes and who does not. I would not exclude ASMs from committee meetings. Their views are important and valuable. I cannot imagine a way to turn off people faster than excluding them from a meeting. As an ASM, if I was told that I could not attend and participate in a committee meeting, I would find something else to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Proud Eagle Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 Listen, if I had the time to go look up the references and take the training before I expressed my opinion I would. However, I do not in this case. Generally on most Scouting issues I am reasonably well informed. However, I have never served on a Troop Committee or been trained to be a member of one. That doesn't mean I don't know anything. It doesn't mean the experience I have had doesn't give me a few useful insights. The point about the tour permit came from an earlier thread. It seemed to be the consencus that the committee had to approve an outing. (Though not the permit itself.) That was the point I was trying to make. I was trying to suggest that the committee's power rested not in the chairman or individual members, but rather in the body as a group. That is generally the nature of committees, though perhaps the BSA has decided to abandon the normal nature of committees. Bob, think about this if you will... If there was no need for the committee to aprove of a trip why would a committee member need to sign the tour permit? It certainly doesn't make any sense to believe that the consent of a single member of the committee is what is desired. It also makes no sense to think that a single committee member would have the authority to speak for the entire committee unless specifically provided for by the committee. The comment about specifically setting the membership of the committee was there for a reason. The individuals who are members should know that they are members. The list of members should be known so as to avoid confusion when it comes time for any important issue to be addressed. I was also trying to suggest that it is not a good idea for all parents to be members, or for all adults and parents to attend and participate in every committee meeting. Those things are counter productive, in my experience. Oh, here is a question I am uncertain of. I think I know both the book answer and the reality. Can an adult be registered as an unit leader without a position being specified? I have been told by what I consider to be an extremely reliable source that while this isn't specifically provided for, that it can be done. It was suggested by that same source that this could be used as a fix for the problem of parents that either want to be registered "leaders" or have nothing to do with the unit at all, and yet at the same time were largely unwilling to be trained for any position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 ProudEagle asks: Oh, here is a question I am uncertain of. I think I know both the book answer and the reality. Can an adult be registered as an unit leader without a position being specified? I have been told by what I consider to be an extremely reliable source that while this isn't specifically provided for, that it can be done. It was suggested by that same source that this could be used as a fix for the problem of parents that either want to be registered "leaders" or have nothing to do with the unit at all, and yet at the same time were largely unwilling to be trained for any position. The "book answer", which you know, is no, you can't. I believe the "reality answer" is, no, even if the council wanted to enter an application without a position code into the computer system (Scoutnet?), the system would not accept it. I would be curious to see the actual charter of this hypothetical unit, and whether there are actual blanks for the positions next to the peoples' names. My guess would be that someone along the line filled in a position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eisely Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 NJCubScouter is correct. You cannot be registered at the unit level without having a position specified on your application form. Concerning committee approval of tour permits and outings. In my mind, outings are approved when the annual calendar is established. Other outings can be added, but the committee should still approve. Signing the tour permit is essentially a confirming act. The fact that BSA includes a space for a committee signature on the tour permit form suggests that BSA takes the committee role seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 " The individuals who are members should know that they are members. The list of members should be known so as to avoid confusion when it comes time for any important issue to be addressed." Committee members should know who they are because they filled out a membership application and wrote a check to BSA. If they didn't fill out a membership application with "Committee member" on it, they aren't committee members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FScouter Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 GrayFox - The vote quote from the current Troop Committee Guidebood #34505B is found at the beginning of Chapter 8. "The committee meeting is attended by all committee members and the Scoutmaster." "The Scoutmaster is not actually a member of the troop committee, and has no vote." You might point out that "The committee should not forget that its primary responsibility is supporting the troop program." As Eisley pointed out, they are not charged with setting the program, they are there to support the program. Assistant Scoutmasters cannot be committee members because a person can only hold one position in a unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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