More rules . . .

[Eamonn]

Question to all the Rule Makers.

How does your rule making fit into the mission of the BSA?

Yes I do live in a utopian cloud where I do believe that when we explain and teach there is no use in tomes of rules.

Eamonn

[Fat Old Guy]

Where we go to summer camp they have a rule that is not in the G2SS or in the Scout Law, "no sandals except at the water front." I'm sure they could go without the rule and explain to each Scout that wearing sandals increased the likelyhood of pedal injuries.

 

They have another rule, no running in camp except for authorized activities. Why? Running on uneven paths leads to injuries. I don't see how this could fall under the Scout Law. Maybe running is discourteous because someone has to interrupt their day to take you to sick bay.

[Bob White]

"Hopefully he will relate it to the Scout Oath & Law."

 

It is unfortunate that a leader with your tenure has relied on hope and rules as you run your scout troop. Far more leaders I have met use trust, and scout methods, to insure a scouts opportunities to experience and absorb the values of scouting in the units they serve.

 

I urge all the leaders who have followed this thread to compare your unit rules to the program methods, procedure recommendations and policies of the BSA. Decide if your unit rules are needed, or are they in conflict with or repetitions of the rules of scouting.

 

Units across the country deliver terrific scouting programs using only scouting methods, why can't the unit you serve be one of them?

 

 

Bob White

 

[Bob White]

"Perhaps many of these would be avoidable if the rules were above all individual members and all were subject to them."

 

I am unclear about what you mean by this. Could you site an example?

 

BW

 

[Bob White]

"I don't see how this could fall under the Scout Law."

 

The way I explain it to the scouts is, a campsite is your home, The tents are your bedroom, the latrine your bathroom, the cook area your kitchen, where you eat is your dining room, the paths are your hallways, and the area in the center your living room. The behavior that applies in your home applies here at camp as well.

 

We then go room by room and I have the scouts tell me what their parents have taught them at home for that area. when we get to the living room someone always says "No Running"! We all have a good laugh and then talk about why.

 

It always comes down to two things, someone will get hurt, or something will get broken. So we talk about those things. In very short order the scouts "get it" and if someone starts to run we will here another scout shout "hey! No running in the house". No written rules, we talk, we c o m m u n i c a t e with scouts. We respect them, they respect us.

 

A Scout is Trustworthy, A Scout is Courteous.

 

By the way Adrianvs, the adults do not run in the campsite either:).

 

Bob White

[SR540Beaver]

BW,

 

No, our unit has no written rules. We use the common sense God gave us. In other words, we explain the rules to the boys much like you just described.

[Adrianvs]

"'Perhaps many of these would be avoidable if the rules were above all individual members and all were subject to them.'

 

I am unclear about what you mean by this. Could you site an example?

 

BW"

 

 

I'd be happy to clarify with examples, Bob. If there were a troop rule about using troop tents and setting them in rows for reasons of campsite order and aesthetics, then the scouters should not be setting there 12-man circus tents under the locust tree at the edge of camp. The reasons for the rules apply. Scoutmasters should not be bringing their dogs to camp unless they are willing to tolerate the scouts doing the same. If a troop were to prohibit the scouts from bringing cell phones (yet allow some adults to carry for emergencies), they should not be making needless calls home when they get bored. If the scouters see fit to ban card games like Yu-Gi-Oh and Magic as unfit for the outdoor experience, they should not find themselves playing Cribbage as the night falls. I have mentioned all these examples before.

 

Again, I don't think that any of these things should be made official troop rules. I just want to remind the "rule-makers" that if they want to make rules for the good of the program, they should apply to everyone in all cases. Most of these local rules are simply to serve the whims of some adult scouter and are applied as such.

 

All rules should be constant, in effect, and apply to everyone where appropriate. In other words, the rules should guide us all as a part of our shared program, not minute-by-minute proclamations by those who wish to make scouting in their own image. If the rules are made by individuals based on their personal preferences and adults become accustomed to the role of "law-maker" then confrontations are bound to arise. Each person is used to making up the rules as they go along and are taken back by another authority. This might be another scouter, a parent, or the BSA.

[Adrianvs]

"Somebody once wrote an improved edition of Scouting for Boys, and in it he ordered that 'Scouts are on no account to smoke.' It is generally a risky thing to order boys not to do a thing; it immediately opens to them the adventure of doing it contrary to orders.

 

Advise them against a thing, or talk of it as despicable or silly, and they will avoid it. I am sure this is very much the case in the matter of unclean talk, of gambling, of smoking, and other youthful faults.

 

It is well to establish a good tone and a public opinion among your boys on a plane which puts these things down as 'what kids do, in order to look smart before others.'"

 

-Lord Robert Baden-Powell

 

 

Tis a far cry from the current and common practice of shouting "Scouts don't smoke!!" while lighting up behind the troop trailer (or in front of it). Just a thought...

[Fat Old Guy]

". . . if someone starts to run we will here another scout shout "hey! No running in the house"

 

So you do have rules, they just are spoken, not written, so they can be changed at a whim. It also seems that you have rule breakers and rule enforcers.

[Bob White]

When did I say that a unit had no rules?

How often did I say that the only rules needed are already in the scouting program?

 

We have proved that sccouting works, and additional unit rules are unnecessary, you just need to use the scouting program. We do not have a rule not to run in camp, we have an agreed up decision that running in camp is dangerous and can brake things. Scouts refrain from running not because of a rule but because each scout has made an ethical decision based on the values of the Oath and Law.

 

I do not volunteer time to make and enforce rules. I am here, like most scout leaders, to teach character through the methods of scouting. We are not hall monitors.

 

Bob White

 

[evmori]

I'm still waiting for them to hear their inner voice so we won't have to tell them to stop running!

 

What is wrong with hope?

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Region 7 Voyageur]

Sheath knives, I believe this started as a discussion about rules prohibiting sheath knives. When I was a scout the BSA supply division sold some very nice sheath knives. I do not recall any scouts in the troop that I was a member of having them. We all had the folding scout knife that had a can opener and bottle opener.

 

When I became active again as a scouter a few years ago I was told that sheath knives are not permitted in scouting, a BSA rule. Upon reading the guide to safe scouting I interpret the guide to mean that there may be better tools to use than a large sheath knife for the job at hand.

 

When working with scouts on knife, axe, and saw uses and safety I discuss the choice of tools available for the job at hand. Scouts are attracted to axes. They are cool and something that they normally do not have access to use in their daily life. I like to show them that much of what they desire to do with an axe may be done faster, safer, and better with a saw. I have a folding hand saw made by Gerber that really impresses them with its effectiveness. There are some tasks that do need an axe. Part of scouting is learning to analize the task and select the correct tool to use. Scouting also should teach the skills, knowledge, and attitude necessary to use the selected tool correctly and safely.

 

I dislike being told that a rule exists and then later discovering that someone made the rule up. I am sure that scouts discover on there own that some rules do not exist and that they have been deceived. I believe that this leads to distrust.

 

This past weekend I was working on a project at home to make a hiking staff. I had a very nice piece of red oak that I needed to strip the bark and cambium off of. My normal knife of choice is a Buck #110 that I keep very sharp. I found that for this task that my Ka-Bar sheath knife worked much better. (no, I am not a Marine) I suspect that the larger and heavier blade was the reason.

 

I feel that for most tasks a good quality lock blade knife is the best choice. This type of knife is far better than the non-locking folding knives that were once common scouting items. There are times that a sheath knife is useful tool.

 

Knives are not dangerous, the improper use of them is. Scoutings job is to teach the difference.

 

 

Dave

 

[Rooster7]

How often did I say that the only rules needed are already in the scouting program?

 

This is the exception, not the rule (no pun intended). Typically, most boys especially 10, 11, and 12 year-olds - and others who have not been exposed to Scouting for very long (and in some cases, some boys who have), are not going to intrinsically connect a Scouting value (or rather one of the points of the Scout Law) to a behavior such as no running around the campfire. In theory, by all means, this is the goal but its not realistic to say the Scout Law and Oath is all a new Scout needs to know if he wants to be respectful and safe around others. When these boys have been in the program for four or five years and/or when they have matured into men, then I can see them calling to mind and interpreting the Scouting Oath and Law on a regular basis. Although, I would think that the values from their religious faith would rein supreme over the Scout Oath and Law and accomplish the same end. That thought brings me to this analogy:

 

Jesus taught us that the two greatest commandments are these:

 

'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matthew 22:38-40

 

If we could keep the love of God in our hearts 24/7, there would be no need to have any other laws (or rules). However, I dont know of anyone who can do this. And, I dont know of any Scout that keeps the Scout Law and/or Oath in the forefront of his mind 24/7.

 

We have proved that scouting works, and additional unit rules are unnecessary, you just need to use the scouting program.

 

And Christians have known for two thousand years that believing in and following Jesus works but many fail to follow the program. The vast majority of our forefathers believed in Jesus and his teachings. Yet, they created laws why? The same reason troops create rules. Its not realistic to believe that every person (or rather every Scout) is going to keep these teachings in his heart 24/7.

 

We do not have a rule not to run in camp, we have an agreed up decision that running in camp is dangerous and can break things. Scouts refrain from running not because of a rule but because each scout has made an ethical decision based on the values of the Oath and Law.

 

Now thats just plain Pollyanna. I suppose that its inconceivable in your mind that in another troop (where the leaders follow the program) the majority of boys disagree that running in camp is dangerous? Or, what if two or three boys disagreed and decided that it was not unethical to run? How do you reconcile this without a rule? I know - you have a group discussion and in the end, they all agree. Sorry youre not on the same planet that the rest of us live on.

 

I do not volunteer time to make and enforce rules. I am here, like most scout leaders, to teach character through the methods of scouting. We are not hall monitors.

 

Perhaps you are blessed with a truly unusual bunch of boys. But theres no way in **** that youre going to convince me that your troops implementation of the Scouting program permits your troop to function without any other additional rules. I believe in teaching good character to young boys in my mind and heart, this is the primary reason for Scouting - its why I have my boys in the program. But it doesnt happen overnight. Troop rules are necessary if no other reason to keep the new Scouts (and those who refuse to be taught) in line. If anything, Ive seen too many troops with not enough rules (AND consequences).

 

Theres another reason why I like to see rules consistency. I want to know what the consequences are up front and see the rules enforced fairly for everyone. Double standards are alive and well in many troops. I think a troop that embraces the Scout Oath and Law should do everything in its power to treat all boys equitably. In my years of experience, due to the lack of rules and established consequences, I have seen much inconsistency when it comes to the treatment of Scouts (by boy and adult leaders) who violate the Scout Oath and Law. Relying on the Scout Oath and Law without any augmentation (i.e., rules and consequences for common behavior problems), leaves it wide open for interpretation, whereas the severity of the violation seems to have as much to do with the Scout's personality and his status with others as it does with the offense. This is not uncommon and I've seen it many times. I'll be willing to bet that most folks on this board have seen it as well.

 

BTW, making and enforcing rules is a part of leadership training - something we should be teaching the boys. And in fact, they are the ones who should be enforcing the rules, if not making them.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Bob White]

"Perhaps you are blessed with a truly unusual bunch of boys. But theres no way in **** that youre going to convince me that your troops implementation of the Scouting program permits your troop to function without any other additional rules."

 

aactually I have had dozens of groups of great kids. I can't image how anyone could do this work for 27 years and have only one group. The troops and packs I have served have changed each year as new scouts come in and older ones graduate. All have been great. Some started great others became great as they progrssed. We are there to make that happen.

 

It is not pollyanna it is scouting. There is reason and pupose to the program. It is designed to accomplish the things I and others have talked about.

 

We build a moral conscience in youth, the inner voice. We do not do it through rules we do it through methods and rule making is not a scout method or skill.

 

Many posters seem to use rules to substitute for leadership.

 

Rooster I have been a unit leader in 4 troops and 2 packs (due to job transfers) NONE used any rules outside those defined in the scouting program. No one to this point has yet given any evidence as to one we need.

 

If you want to control a scouts behavior, forget about making new rules, teach scouting!

 

Bob White

 

A question for rooster ed and some others who believe unit rules are needed.

 

Rather than tell those of us who deliver scouting without a bunch of extra rules that it's impossible, why aren't you asking how to make it possible in the units you serve?

 

Wouldn't you rather be able to get the results of scouting without all kinds of unit rules

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fat Old Guy]

" Scouts refrain from running not because of a rule but because each scout has made an ethical decision based on the values of the Oath and Law."

 

Sure they do. One tenet of life in the service is that a suggestion by a superior is an order. When the Cap'n says, "Sailor, that trash can looks pretty full" that really means, "I want that trash can emptied."

 

I doubt that if we polled a dozen of your Scouts about running in Camp, they wouldn't say, "we made an ethical choice based on the Scout law to not run." They'd say, "Bob White says that we shouldn't run in camp." That's a suggestion from an authority figure which translates into a rule.