More rules . . .

[Bob White]

Ed I hate to be the one to break this to you, but she changed because she got caught. Had she not gotten the ticket, or even seen the police officer, would she have changed? The traffic signs were up the day she got ticketed weren't they? Did knowing the rule make her follow the rule? Evidently not!

 

The Scouts are running behind your back because the only thing that stops them is "the rule" and when the rule isn't in their mind, they break it. But had they been taught the meaning of the Scout Law, had the "character" of a scout been the lesson, and not the "Rule of the troop", then the running behind your back would stop. Because character controls our decisions, rules tell us our boundaries before we get punished.

 

Less rule making and more character building is what following the scouting program can do.

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Bob White]

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[scoutingagain]

A scout is Healthy!

 

I'm a health and safety professional for a large engineering & construction co. I deal with the issue of rules vrs values all the time with adults. Rules only change behavior if there is a belief one will suffer consequences if one is caught. i.e. a ticket.

 

I often ask folks I provide health and safety training to if they drive 55 mph. Most indicate no. I ask what do they do if a State Trooper pulls up behind them. They slow down. And if the Trooper exits? They speed up. Then I ask, how many unbuckle their seatbelts?

 

None(and most use them). They have all made the determination on their own they want to keep their seat belt buckled. A determination made because they believe it adds value to their life. It might save it. You don't need a Trooper around to make sure they use it.

 

In scouting we try and instill values so scouts can choose the best behavior on their own. If we are successful, arbitrary rules shouldn't be needed. There may be times, such as safety issues, where because of the risks, we create rules to quickly induce appropriate behaviour. i.e. No swimming without a buddy.

 

I don't see rules such as no electronics on campouts as safety rules though. (Although thank God for head phones.) Common courtesy and a value of the outdoor experience should dictate when such items are used.

 

SA

 

 

 

 

 

[scoutingagain]

I was sure healthy was in there somewhere.

 

Change the first line of my last post to:

 

"...to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake..."

 

SA

[Laurie]

Bob, thanks for your response. Having just taken New Leader Essentials, I can see where that covers what we need to know. When I asked the CM about that clause when signing my app, he had no idea what it meant. I trusted in the reputation and history of the BSA then, and I've not changed my mind. It's just that rules are emphasized in some ways, so knowing how they are to be used is important to me. By the way, until you pointed out that NLE covers what we need to know, I had not made that connection (cringe!).

 

Dave, thanks for sharing that info. I did read those bylaws and rules and regulations a few months back. My husband looked at it and said "boring" . I found it interesting, but then my background is that I wrote bylaws, mission statements, vision statements, policies and procedures, budgets, and the like for a local non-profit. To me, it was fascinating to be involved in all that behind-the-scenes dull-as-dirt stuff that helped the organization to function more efficiently.

 

I'm learning a lot about the rules of the BSA in this thread, and I'd like to thank you all. It is making me think more about how I approach certain situations, how I might improve in my positions in Scouting. It is, most importantly for me, putting everything into focus and connecting the dots.

[SR540Beaver]

BW,

 

With all due respect, please give me a break! I already said that we teach the Oath and Law. We seek to instill in the boys the values that develop character. We also lead by example. But you know what? You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Character development is a process. You don't wake up one day full of all the best character attributes. They develop over time. Therefore, when we are at camp and some kid keeps picking up rocks and throwing them, we keep reminding him that it is not allowed. What he does behind our backs, we have no idea.....we can't see him then. We don't just tell him not to throw rocks, we explain to him why we don't throw rocks. We tell him that by reminding him of the Oath and Law and what it means. Hopefully some day he will mature enough that it will click and he'll quit doing it because he chooses not to and because it is the right thing to do. Until then, we have to remind them to follow the rules. I'd rather send a kid home for throwing rocks than send a kid home with a bloody knot on his head after getting hit with a rock. We know the program and we apply it, we just don't get 100% compliance from the boys 100% of the time.

[Bob White]

Beaver, with all due respect, please tell me you do not have a written troop rule that says "scouts will not throw rocks".

 

Bob White

[Fat Old Guy]

"The Scouts are running behind your back because the only thing that stops them is "the rule" and when the rule isn't in their mind, they break it."

 

What part of the Scout law would prevent a Scout from running?

 

 

[Rooster7]

Perspective

 

Let's get some.

 

We all understand the goal. Everyone agrees that we want all Scouts to follow the Scout Oath and Law - all the time (even when we're not looking). It's certainly an admirable goal. But, do you honestly believe that there is no need for rules? Do you think that all Scouts should hold the Scout Oath and Law so near and dear to their hearts that they don't need to think about consequences - They should always comply because they know it's the right thing to do? Admirable! But it is hardly realistic.

 

Christians have been teaching good character for two centuries longer than the BSA - But unlike some BSA leaders, most pastors recognize the human condition. Were all prone to sin. Rules are not an admittance of defeat. They're a dose of reality. Necessary - even for most Eagle Scouts, I dare say.

 

[Adrianvs]

I think many scouters wish to rely on local rules because they like the distance that an "impartial" rule gives them. Instead of looking at a scout's behavior that is not prohibited by national rules and explaining to him how it is discourteous or dangerous, the scouter can just point to Troop Rule #35. If their judgement is contested (usually by a parent), the scouter can point to an objective rule and issues of judgement, etc. can be avoided.

 

The problem with these rules is that they become numerous, subjective unevenly applied, and too broad. They prohibit a range of acceptable, normal, behavior in order to root out a problem behavior. These problem behaviors are usually a normal behavior simply misapplied. I've mentioned before how certain rules apply to adults and youth, but are not enforced upon both.

In other cases, we prohibit one form of an acceptable behavior to the exclusion of others. Usually, this has to do with courtesy and respect. I recall an example that has to do with language and applies to society as a whole more than scouting specifically. I was at a campfire with some scouts and scouters, and some scout responded "What the hell.." He was quickly repremanded by nearby greybeard for his language infraction. A few moments later, the same scout or another (I don't recall), began speaking of Lucifer, Satan, etc. in the same vain manner. I was struck by the notion that the mention of hell would merit a stern repremand while rather more detailed description of it's inhabitant would not. During the same trip, a scout referred to another's mother as a " **** ." This is certainly disrespectful and the scout was duly repremanded. I noticed that similar references using the word "cow" or "sow" or something to that effect were or would be ignored. Yet these references are just as disrespectful and perhaps more so because they require thought and an intentional comparison.

 

Just a ponderance on the things that "set us off"... We seem to respond to the certain "vintage" forms of disrespect as a matter of tradition, rather than essence of what makes them offensive.

 

I will admit that I didn't respond in either case. This was likely because I was visiting the troop and the realizations that the second actions were offensive came after response would have been inappropriate. In both cases, a troop rule would have made it much easier for myself or someone else to respond. But on second thought, would a troop rule prohibit the words "sow" or "cow" from being spoken? What about "hell?" Is it the context or the word? Would an official rule banning the word itself be a good course of action? I don't think so. Should there be consequences if a scout (or scouter) persists in disrespectful behavior? Of course. Should all possible disrespectful behaviors be listed in some troop policy? I think that's another question..

[Bob White]

Rooster, take a deep breathe.

No one has said there shouldn't be rules. The question is whether there is need for the unit to create rules in addition to those in scouting in order to have a successful scouting program.

 

My experience says no.

[Bob White]

"Should all possible disrespectful behaviors be listed in some troop policy?"

 

"A Scout is Courteous"

Seems to me there already is a rule.

 

Bob White

[Bob White]

"What part of the Scout law would prevent a Scout from running?"

 

I would hope none of them.

 

I don't want scouts to stop running. I want them to make good decisions about when and where to run. Rules do not teach character. Character comes from the ability to make good decisions. That comes from a value base and not from rules.

 

Before a scout decides to run in camp I want an inner voice to say "is this helpful to others? Is this courteous? Is this being trustworthy?". I trust that a scout will learn to make the right decision if he receives a real scout program, based on teaching inner values not artificial rules.

 

Bob White

[evmori]

"Before a scout decides to run in camp I want an inner voice to say "is this helpful to others? Is this courteous? Is this being trustworthy?". I trust that a scout will learn to make the right decision if he receives a real scout program, based on teaching inner values not artificial rules."

 

And if their aura if fight they might even help an old lady across the street! Get real! Inner voice? You jave a better chance of an outer voice saying "no running in camp." If you really think a 13 year old Scout is thinking that he shouldn't be running across the campsite when he is in a hurry to go fishing? I doubt it! The Scout will learn to make the correct decision when he realizes he shouldn't be running & why he shouldn't be running. Hopefully he will relate it to the Scout Oath & Law.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Adrianvs]

hahahahahaha...

 

Firstly, I wondered if there would be some automatic response to my use of the word denoting female dog in my earlier post. (I assume it was automatic.)

 

Secondly, what is the deal with running? I can see that running in close proximity to a fire or obstacles might be dangerous, but is running the best example of behavior that needs to be controlled by rules? It seems to me that running is a behavior that may be annoying to some in certain circumstances. In some cases, scouters might form a rule "NO RUNNING.." and selectively enforce it when they are annoyed. Unfortunately, there are several behaviors which annoy me more than running. The wearing of hats too small for one's head and the carabining of coffee mugs to one's belt are two examples. I could certainly make a safety issue of it, but I suppose it's good that I'm not a uniform inspector or policy maker as most of the offenders are adults.

 

Yes, we need specific rules in additions to than the Law.

Yes, the BSA probably provides all these rules.

Yes, it's a to look all these up.

Yes, it's a sign of lazyness and arrogance to make up new rules on the whim to prevent scouts from spoiling one's campout.

Yes, scouts sometimes need reinforcement or punishment to follow the important rules.

 

Yes, scouters sometimes need reinforement or punishment to follow the important rules...?

 

I'll let everyone chew the last one. When any organization has more than one little dicator running around, there comes a time when the policies of the moment will conflict. We've seen these kinds of disputes on this board before. Perhaps many of these would be avoidable if the rules were above all individual members and all were subject to them.

 

Oh well, let the rule-makers continue in their ways. I'll be running around the campsite...