More rules . . .

[Twocubdad]

Rather than create artificial rules, the Unit Leader could fulfill their role as teacher and guide by seeing that scouts have the proper instruction in the use and safe handling of knives and other camp tools.

 

So I see a Scout using his knife in an unsafe manner. Seeing this as a teaching opportunity, we open his handbook to page 78 and read the following:

 

DO keep the blade closed except when you are using them

DO cut away from yourself.

DO close the blades before you pass a knife to someone else.

DO keep your knife sharp and clean.

DO obey and school regulations...

DON'T carry a knife with the blade open.

DON'T throw a knife.

DON't cut toward yourself.

DON'T strike a knife with another tool...

 

Sounds like rules to me. And yes, there are consequences to violating them (aside from a sliced finger.) On the Cub Scout Whittling Chip, the side of the card the Scout signs says, "In return for the privilege of carrying a pocketknife at Cub Scout functions, I agree to the following:..." There is a clear implication that failure to follow the rules will result in the revocation of the privilege. I don't have a copy of the Boy Scout Totin' Chip, but the Handbook similarly refers to Totin' "rights."

 

At Webelos camp this summer I taught Citizen activity pin. One of the requirements is for the boys to explain why we have laws. They keep us safe and provide structure and organization to society. That's all rules are. I agree that many units have a lot of unecessary rules. But my objection is more that they tend to be adult-inspired than boy-led. If the boys decide to prohibit electronic from campouts or require attendance at a planning meeting in order to participate in a specific event, I see no problem.

 

[Bob White]

My point exactly twocubdad. The rules needed for a scouting program already exist within the scouting program. There is no need for units to create additional ones, when following the BSA program would be more than sufficient.

 

Bob White

[dsteele]

Excellent point, gentlemen (I've met you both in person, so I feel no hesitancy to address you with the honorific.)

 

The BSA kills almost as many trees with its policies and manuals and flyers as any federal branch of the government. I don't like killing trees, but if you saw the amount of stuff on the BSA intranet for professionals, you'd thank your lucky stars that it doesn't all get printed on paper and shipped out. We might just beat the feds in their entirety in killing trees if it were.

 

I see no need for troops to add rules to what the BSA (all of which is run by attorneys) publishes.

 

DS

[Fat Old Guy]

So Bob, you'd have no heartache if a Scout showed up for a campout wearing camo pants and carrying a 12" Bowie knife?

[Bob White]

I don't know. In all the years I have been scouting I have only had an event like that take place. it was dealt with according to the safety regulations of the G2SS.

 

I guess rather than spend time creating rules trying to prevent some behaviors I have focused on delivering a program where that behavior wasn't considered by the scouts.

 

So far it has worked just fine. What interests me is that you seem less interested in wanting to have a program where all these artificial rules are unnecessary and more interested in trying to find fault with simply delivery the program as it is designed.

 

Why is that?

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fat Old Guy]

" In all the years I have been scouting I have only had an event like that take place."

 

Huh?

 

"artificial rules"

 

Is there such a thing as a natural rule?

[Bob White]

I can't believe I'm up this late, but The Producers was on TV and it's one of my favorite movies.

 

I meant to say that I have only had that kind of event happen once.

 

Yes, I see unit rules as artificial. They are unnatural controls that obstruct the natural operation of the scouting program.

 

Back to the question...If you could deliver a quality scouting program without all these unit made rules (as lots of units do) why wouldn't you want to?

 

Good Night,

Bob White

[scoutldr]

One reason I see units making rules (or "by-laws") is that they don't know that BSA rules (policies) exist, nor where to find them, so their answer is to figure out what they need to know and publish them in one place for the parents and leaders. If they don't know of a BSA rule that applies, they feel compelled to make one up, which may or may not agree with BSA policy.

 

Like my recent question on complete uniforms. I don't have the time nor the money to collect ALL of the references so I can research the question properly and quote the specific reference that it may be buried in.

 

One thing the BSA could do is put ALL publications and forms on a CD (or on line) and index them and cross reference them in a searchable .pdf format. Sure would save a lot of trees. Or are these pubs viewed as a profit center for the Scout Shops? I would gladly pay 10 bucks for an annual CD. DS referred to a BSA Intranet for professionals? Why not allow access for district and council volunteers?

 

Reminds me of the time I asked our Comptroller a question about travel regs. The insulting answer was "you wouldn't understand the rules, so you can't see them. Ask me the question and I will tell you the answer."

 

That's one thing I like about this forum. All the answers are a few mouse clicks away. Too bad it's not "official".

[Bob White]

"I don't have the time nor the money to collect ALL of the references."

 

Lets look at the myriad of resouce materials a Boy Scout unit needs to have on hand in order to have all the methods, polices and procedures at their fingertips.

 

A Boy Scout Handbook $7.95

A Scoutmaster Handbook $10.95

A Troop Committee Guidebook $4.70

A Uniform Insignia Guide $3.95

An Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual $4.40

*A Guide to safe Scouting $0.00

*(available on line)

 

Now lets presume that no scoutmaster would be serving without a Boy Scout Handbook or Scoutmaster Handbook, and that if a committee expected every boy to have a handbook then the committee would certainly have at least one of their own guidebooks. The total outlay for ALL those additional reference books is......

 

$8.35.

 

So if money is keeping you from owning the reference materials of scouting try selling an extra 2 boxes of micro-wave popcorn.

 

As far as why over a million adult volunteers do not have access to Scout-net, it is because you child's adress and phone number, along with the address and phone number of over 5-million other children are available there, and not every charter organization pays close enough attention as to who they allow near our kids.

 

Will other publications become available on line, certainly. We see more materials get on line every year.

 

"All the answers are a few mouse clicks away. Too bad it's not "official".

 

Thats not true at all. All the personal opinions you want are a few clicks away. All the answers you want are in a few resource manuals of the BSA. The problem is not every one wants to follow the official scouting program.

 

Bob White

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fat Old Guy]

"They are unnatural controls that obstruct the natural operation of the scouting program."

 

So rules that come from Texas are natural rules. Hmmmmm . . . interesting concept. So if Texas says, "No sheath knives" that suddenly would become a natual rule. Very interesting.

[Fat Old Guy]

"Reminds me of the time I asked our Comptroller a question about travel regs"

 

BSA has much like that. For example, if you want to look at the Official By-laws of BSA, you have to get permission from your Scout Executive. Why? "Because regular folk don't need to look at them."

 

Hey! I'm a dues paying member. I don't know of any other organization where dues paying members are prevented from looking at the rules.

[Bob White]

WARNING!

Some posters hear are really twisting the truth, or perhaps just prefering to not learn it.

 

The resources of the BSA may be printed in Texas, but remember that they are written by committees made up of BSA volunteer members from across the country. To think that pros sit in offices in Irving and write this stuff themselves, shows a total lack of knowledge of the process they sit here and condemn.

 

To think that the rules of the BSA is a secret is silly. To think that the BSA By-Laws have anything to do with unit operation is just plain wrong. Are you interested in organizing a District or Council? Then go to your Scout Service Center and look at the BSA By-Laws that establish the council as a non-profit corporation. Hey, you want to see a building permit you go look at it at City Hall right?

 

But for cryin out loud, the same folks whining that they want to see the by-laws don't even look at the Scout Handbook or the Scoutmaster Handbook. Why do they want to know how a council operates when they don't want to know how a troop operates?

 

And what is so unusual about the BSA writing the rules of the BSA program? The Girls Scouts write the Rules for the Girl Scout program. My company writes the rules for its employees. My State and local government write the rules for my state and town.

 

If the BSA isn't going to set the rules for the BSA then who should?

 

Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Fat Old Guy]

"Some posters hear are really twisting the truth"

 

Ah Bob, as many have observed, you do a good job of that.

 

" To think that the BSA By-Laws have anything to do with unit operation is just plain wrong."

 

Now, who is twisting things around? I just pointed out that to look at the sacred text, you need the permission of the SE. If he won't annoint you, you don't get to peek at the blessed words. Interesting, no?

 

I belong to organizations that range in size from over 4 million to around 500 and the only organization that doesn't make all of it's rules and regulations for all levels easily available is BSA.

 

"The resources of the BSA may be printed in Texas, but remember that they are written by committees made up of BSA volunteer members from across the country"

 

And we've all been told how the pros "guide" the volunteers.

 

 

[Bob White]

The By-Laws of the BSA have nothing, zip, zero, nada, to do with the methods, or policies, of unit operation.

 

If you were to take any of the unit level scout leader training courses the ONLY aspect of the By-laws that are even discussed is the charter organization concept and the role of the COR as a voting member of the District and Council. Why is nothing else discussed. Becauise they are secrets that if let out to mere volunteers would bring about the end of civilization as you imagine it? No. Because it has no relevance to unit operation.

 

The by-laws are legal requirements to establish the BSA and the inter-related Councils as non-profit organizations. If you are legally responsible for the operation of a council you need to know this information. Council Scout Executives, Council Presidents, need access to By-laws, DE's and District Chairs who to operate legal elections of officers, need access to by-laws.

 

A unit leader needs to know how to deliver the program to youth. There is nothing about that in the By-laws.

 

"And we've all been told how the pros "guide" the volunteers."

 

No you haven't. You have been told that each committee is has a professional advisor. You honestly haven't the slightest notion what they do.

 

You help guide a scout troop. If you believe that "guiding" means "controls them and tells them what to do", then no amount of by-laws or rules you are exposed to will make you a good scout leader.

 

Rather than rant about aspects of scouting that you have never participated, in or took the time to learn about, you could be using the resources of scouting to ask questions and develop yourself as a leader or resource.

 

Instead you have chosen to develop unsupported opinions and blurt them out as facts, even when at times you know they are false in order to inflame conversations and mislead well intentioned volunteers who participate in this forum.

 

An unfortunate choice.

 

Bob White

 

[hops_scout]

"So Bob, you'd have no heartache if a Scout showed up for a campout wearing camo pants and carrying a 12" Bowie knife?"

 

Well, FOG, that boy and his parents are going to have more problems than the leader not liking the use of such a large knife. Where Bob's at( I know this b/c he is only a few hours away:)), it would be illegal for that boy to buy, own, posses, etc such a large knife.