Non-Gay Political Issue// Women Registering for Selective Service

[Fat Old Guy]

"I have to agree wholeheartedly with Rooster on this one. But I don't think it has much to do with gender. I, for one, would rather go to war at age 45, 55, 65, or 75 than send my hypothetical 18 year old son OR daughter into a war. "

 

Hmmmm. . . noble on the face but foolish underneath. With the exception of a few, like KS who makes his living being ready to hurt people, most of us are aged, slow, overweight, and ailing. 18 year olds are fast, less prone to injury and more convinced of their own immortatlity. Even in the military, the 45 year olds usually aren't on the front lines leading charges, they are in the back using their brains.

 

I wouldn't like my son to go off to war but he has a better chance of survival than I do. Actually, his chance of survival is pretty high because he'd spend most of his time in the brig because he didn't listen.

 

 

[Rooster7]

Adrianvs,

 

I understand my duty as a man - to defend our country and/or to protect the interests of our countrymen. It's not a duty that I would gleefully fulfill, but I realize that every man - including my sons, has this obligation. But let me make this clear, if my country ever tried to force my daughter to fight a war - to subject her to the brutality that would certainly come if she was ever capture, to witness the horrors that men in such circumstances can inflict upon one another, and to surrender her innocence for life (if not life itself) - then I'd rather go to war with my own country.

 

If you want to fight a war with your daughters, go ahead! But you'll find yourself in a fight to the death if you ever try to take my daughter.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[CharityAK]

You go, rooster.

 

And I thought chivalry was dead right along with acknowledging the value of feminine contribution in the home....

 

Charity

[eisely]

I have no strong feelings about this either way. Certainly equity suggests that women should be as susceptible to conscription as men.

 

The whole argument is largely moot. I doubt that we will ever see the kind of conflicts that we had in WWI, WWII, Korea, or Viet Nam, requiring millions of people in uniform over a long period of time. Unless enlistments start falling off for some unforeseeable reason, I think our all volunteer force will be sufficient.

[Momma scout]

I normally am just a silent observer to these posts, but feel I must post my opinion to this one.

 

First of all, I'm all for equal rights for everyone regardless of sex, color or religion. Several of you are touting equal rights, women should register along with men, fight on the front lines, etc., etc., etc. However, are you willing to pay us the same wages as the men? It's been researched time and again that women make less money for the same jobs as men. I know money shouldn't be an issue when it comes to defending our constitution and our country, but if we (women) are good enough to fight beside you and save your butt, pay us what we're worth - well, we'd settle for equal.

 

(Yes, I'm a little sore. I work in a female dominated profession, yet a male co-worker revealed that he makes more money than the rest of us. How is that for equal rights. I have a family to support, too.)

[Momma scout]

I normally am just a silent observer to these posts, but feel I must post my opinion to this one.

 

First of all, I'm all for equal rights for everyone regardless of sex, color or religion. Several of you are touting equal rights, women should register along with men, fight on the front lines, etc., etc., etc. However, are you willing to pay us the same wages as the men? It's been researched time and again that women make less money for the same jobs as men. I know money shouldn't be an issue when it comes to defending our constitution and our country, but if we (women) are good enough to fight beside you and save your butt, pay us what we're worth - well, we'd settle for equal.

 

(Yes, I'm a little sore. I work in a female dominated profession, yet a male co-worker revealed that he makes more money than the rest of us. How is that for equal rights. I have a family to support, too.)

[OldGreyEagle]

The transgressions of a segment of society should not determine who defends that society. If both sexes enjoy the benefits, then both sexes need to share the risks.

 

 

[scoutingagain]

Rooster,

 

I share your sentiments about not wanting to send a child off to war. I am the father of two sons and would not want them taken from me either. In a free society I am hopeful we do not have to resort to a draft again and have the utmost repect for those that choose to serve and their families.

 

After 9/11 my older son(15) expressed interest in the military. I was suprised because we had never really discussed it before. I told him if it was something he wanted to do, that would be his choice and I would be proud of him. (If I could, I'd go with him, but FOG makes good points.) I cringe at the thought of him having to go fight but understand the need.

 

I'm curious though, what if your daughter volunteered for military service?

 

SA

 

 

 

[Adrianvs]

"If you want to fight a war with your daughters, go ahead! But you'll find yourself in a fight to the death if you ever try to take my daughter."

 

Now why on earth would 'I' need to take your daughters when you so willingly give up your sons? Just kidding.. I said that I don't support a female draft BUT, we mustn't ignore the many women who are willing and able to serve in their country's war efforts. In most cases, these are non-combat roles, but not always.

 

We are fortunate as a nation that the horrors of war have been primarily borne by our soldiers. This is not always the case, however, and women have experienced the horrors, brutality, loss of innocence and life as strongly and effectively as men. Women ARE as a whole less suited to combat. But they have historically NOT been sheltered from or more debilitated by the horrors of mankind, martial or otherwise.(This message has been edited by Adrianvs)

[packsaddle]

OGE, I agree. All or none (hope this wasn't a shock to your intuition). Momma scout, many many men went to war and died or returned to lives in which their basic rights were denied. Black Americans, Japanese Americans, for example. Although I share your aversion to involuntary servitude, your rationalization falls flat historically.

 

I too would serve in place of either of my children. But this whole discussion is probably moot. The draft is extremely unlikely for good reasons (articulated during a Republican administration, Nixon). Later Ford actually even ended registration (restarted later yet by Carter). The all volunteer force works and works well. If we need more persons in the services, we merely need to entice the potential volunteers with better pay and benefits. THAT would be fair.

[Fat Old Guy]

"t if we (women) are good enough to fight beside you and save your butt, pay us what we're worth - well, we'd settle for equal."

 

The military pays women exactly the same as men.

 

As for the likelyhood of the draft, it may come back. If we stay in Iraq for very long, recruitment will drop. The problem with enticing recruits with benefits was shown during GW I. How many soldiers were heard whining about how they just joined to get an education? How many times did we hear about how UNFAIR it was to send both parents away even though they knew darn well that was a possibility?

[mrs red feather]

It's a little hard for me to admit that I agree completely with Fat Old Guy. I would not be surprised if the draft comes back due to lower enlistment and the overuse of the National Guard. I would not be surprised if both sexes were required to register.

 

Look at the hoopla surrounding the Jessica Lynch fiasco. She was wounded, she was stabbed, she fired to the last round, she seized her fallen companions' weapons and fired to THEIR last round, she was beaten and starved. We saw the cartoons of her chasing Saddam with her M-16. All deliberate lies. Didn't she receive a medal for heroism? Did she deserve it? I can think of no reason to spread such lies unless to inflame the public and inspire young women to enlist.

 

American Women have always served in one way or another since the Revolution, tho rarely in combat situations. Remember the nurses and ambulance drivers in WWI and WWII, the transport pilots in WWII. It has been only recently that those women have been recognized and honored for their contribution. Did you know that in WWII FDR came very close to drafting nurses?

 

In the present situation (and in GWI) I think it is fair to say that women ARE being drafted. Many wives, mothers, daughters in the National Guard have been called up and are on active duty right now. Babies are with grandparents because both parents were called.

 

I can't think of any reason why our daughters should not be required to register as well as our sons. But I would grieve for our country if it comes to a draft.

 

I watch PBS news. Every night they show the pictures and personal information of those fallen in combat. Far too many of them are only 20 years old.

[KoreaScouter]

It's incredibly unlikely we'll ever return to military conscription under any circumstance. It's strictly demographic. We have a U.S. population of about 280 million and an active duty military population less than 1.5 million (double it with the Guard/Reserve). If we had conscription, the period of service to ensure everybody (with some medical/humanitarian deferments) served, would be so ridiculously short that it wouldn't be worth the investment in training, equipping, etc. Moreover, our accession sources and training centers would collapse under their own weight from the revolving-door training burden. Many of our NATO allies faced this problem after the collapse of the Soviet Union, shortened conscription times until they were meaningless and their training commands cried "uncle", then they went to all-volunteer forces.

 

As an option, you could make the deferments more generous to cut down on the numbers you need to push through the pipeline, but then you end up right back where you started -- very small proportion of the population actually serves.

 

Considering that we have more men registered than we can ever use, why register women too, unless it's to peg the social "fairness meter"? Aren't there better ways to do that? Women have the opportunities to join and excel in the military now (with just a few combat exceptions), without having to register for the draft. I don't see what they'll gain by compelling them to register.

 

Newsflash: men do have an option regarding combat or support roles -- it's called the all volunteer force. And, once you're in the door, you can get guarantees on your MOS/AFSC/Rate. So, every infantryman is an infantryman because of choices & decisions he made, not made for him by someone else.

 

Reservists who are called up weren't drafted; they volunteered too, a few or more years ago. When they did, they acknowledged that they could be activated on the order of the President. Most people gloss over that part, thinking it can never happen. I spent four years in the Guard between active duty periods, and although we knew we could be activated, we lived our lives as if we wouldn't be.

 

Would I want my daughter to join the military? No. If I have to send my baby girl to fight, we've got an issue besides whether women should register. Pray to God it never comes to that.

 

KS

[Fat Old Guy]

"And, once you're in the door, you can get guarantees on your MOS/AFSC/Rate."

 

Don't they still have the wonderful thing called "The needs of the service"? "I know you signed up to be a clerk/typist son but we need tank mechanics now."

[scoutldr]

Welcome to those who have been flushed out of the shadows!

 

The military and civil service is one area where pay is tied to the position, not the individual. A Captain with 10 years' service makes the same...male or female. A GS-13, step 5 makes the same, male or female. Momma, if you have a true gender discrimination case, you have an obligation to your gender to file a complaint. But just be sure that you have all the facts...(and I don't know what they are)...is the education and experience the same? Is the work produced the same? Do you take more time off than the males because of child care issues? I have males and females who work with me, and my observation is that whenever a kid gets sick, Mom stays home, because Dad is much too important and can't afford to take off. Or he has to save his vacation time for hunting season. The females want to get promoted...as long as they don't have to travel. Sorry, but the job requires travel, so the promotion goes to the one who is willing and able to do the work. Period.

I hate to sound like a cold Scrooge, but I have a boss who expects certain things to get done, and I have to hire the people who can help me do that. Your family issues are your personal decisions, and certain decisions may have career consequences. You can't have it all, unless someone else picks up the slack somewhere.

In my own family, we decided that my wife (an RN) would give up her $50,000 hospital job (today's dollars) and be a stay at home Mom until the youngest started school. When the youngest started school, she became a school nurse at half the pay...because the hours allowed her to be home when the kids were home. The result is, we are considerably behind our peers in wealth and "possessions". We've lived in the same house for 20 years. We don't have 3 rental properties and a vacation condo. We don't have a $50,000 SUV and a boat. We lived without cable until a few years ago. I passed up countless better jobs in big cities because we felt it was important that the kids grow up in our home town where they could see their grandparents, aunts and uncles whenver they wanted.

Was it worth it? Absolutely. We have a lower net worth than our DINK friends, but we are wealthy beyond our dreams. It's all about choices and trade-offs. I don't disagree that discrimination still happents, but before you assume that the only difference is a Y-chromosome, make sure you have whole story.