Medical Procedure

[Rooster7]

Kasane,

 

Well, lets get this straight right now gentlemen. The moment you guys get pregnant, you get the chance to decide whether to carry to term or not.

 

This kind of nonsense wasnt completely unexpected. Lets turn the tables a little. Ladies, the day you can impregnate yourself without the aid of a man or God, you get to make decisions about that baby without any outside say.

 

Or, how about this amoral premise the day you can rape a man, you get the chance to decide whether or not a rapist goes to jail. Kasane, you supposition is every bit as insane and inane. I dont have to be a female to know and understand the immorality of abortion. So do yourself a favor and abandon that tact Its insulting to men and women.

 

Packsaddle,

 

OK Rooster7, I suppose some cataclysm that wiped out civilization could potentially eliminate the knowledge base that includes the abortion procedure. But it's fairly simple and probably would be rediscovered quickly. Short of that, the genie (the ability) is out of the bottle. The choice has always been there, always will be.

 

So what if the genie is out of the bottle? In regards to murder, the genie has been out of the bottle since Cain killed Abel. Yet, we still have laws against murder. Just because irrational folks are willing to murder innocent life and risk their own, I see moral imperative to legalize it. Desperation and foolishness should not be used as a yardstick to measure the moral acceptability of peoples behavior.

 

Littlebillie,

 

At what point, and by what mechanism does a soul happen?

 

Most, if not all of your questions, are questions that you should ask God one day. Ironically, many in our society cannot leave it at that they want to play God. Theyd rather risk His wrath, than be inconvenienced while they walk on earth. You claim that its the mothers risk to take. If the only life that was in question were her own, Id tend to agree with you. However, I have no reason to view the unborn child as anything but a living being an innocent child. Thats not going to change as long as God gives me a conscience.

 

[littlebillie]

Rooster - here's what you said about me: "You claim that its the mothers risk to take."

 

And here's what I actually said: '...here's where I intellectually take the PC cop-out of individual choice"'

 

Frankly, I thought my entire post was full of references to my indecision, still weighing all sides, and so on.

 

Moving right along... "Or, how about this amoral premise the day you can rape a man, you get the

chance to decide whether or not a rapist goes to jail." Technically, Bobbitt (sp?) was raped. Statutory stories of female teachers and underage boys abound these days, as well. If you care to make some searches, you'll come up with others, much more alarming.

 

I'll assume that if you have a firm and unequivical stand on abortion, that you yourself have asked God these questions. What did you two come with? I'm seriously interested.

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

littlebillie, You can be assured that unless your nail-clipping is a lot more painful than mine, no cells are involved. I would add to the idea, though, that I don't consider life to begin at fertilization. I consider haploid cells to be alive as well and that, in my view, life is a continuum. The question of soul will never be resolved to the satisfaction of all and if that is the basis for drawing the line, I expect that such line will continue to be argued for a long time to come.

I don't draw a line because I consider all cells in the human life cycle to be human, even the haploid ones, and I have no idea where souls emerge (although I have been accused of still being on the waiting list myself). I share your feeling about children's lives and I wish abortion would never happen (If that doesn't sound rock solid, you're correct). However, it does and I live with it.

 

I agree with your observation regarding crossing borders and alleys and I think one way to answer your query for an atheist approach could hinge on issues surrounding the commercial aspects of abortion. The market has no sense of morality outside that of the individuals engaged in market activity. The market has no sense of direction or purpose outside maximizing efficiency and profit. Where there is a demand (for abortion services) a supply will emerge and the only question remaining is price. If it is a freemarket, supply and demand will arrive at a fair price. Under freemarket conditions, supply will satisfy most of demand. If something constrains the supply, this will affect price, probably increasing it. This will also be reflected in the venue - backalley services will be more common, costly, and risky; border crossings will be really expensive, thereby forcing the poor to backalleys or increasingly to have unwanted offspring. (neglect, for the time being, the increased cost to society for resultant medical services) The market in this case shifts to black markets or foreign markets, both costly in many ways. The unwanted offspring could stimulate an additional set of services but the nature of that would be decided, again, by the market. Such services could include adoption, housing (orphanages), other government or charity services. But they could bring additional costs (medical treatment, food, housing, education, increased crime, prison housing, government regulation of the above, etc.)

We already know the result of this scenario. The market offered a new set of services and we rushed to embrace those alternative market services of contraception and abortion. From the market perspective, it would be easy to conclude that to avoid the costs and to keep the services in the country and out of the black markets, abortion must be available. From the freemarket perspective this is good. I apologize in advance for this limited perspective on markets but I think it encapsulates some of the essential features.

 

I would be interested, however, in hearing how, hypothetically speaking, abortion foes could accomplish their goals. In the ideal world how would abortion be absolutely stopped? How could such control be imposed? What means would foes be willing to use to establish this? Time to stop the hand-wringing and cough up the solutions.

 

Edited part: Rooster7, I should have been clearer. By 'genie' I meant new technologies. Often a new ability raises subsequent questions but most of the time, once discovered, these new abilities are used and it's tough (impossible?) to make them go away. Making them illegal just changes the venue, but if that is all it takes to satisfy you I suppose that's good enough.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Adrianvs]

"I'll assume that if you have a firm and unequivical stand on abortion, that you yourself have asked God these questions. What did you two come with? I'm seriously interested."

 

Hmm...

 

I'll assume that if you have a firm and unequivical stand on slavery, that you yourself have asked God these questions. What did you two come with? I'm seriously interested.

 

I'll assume that if you have a firm and unequivical stand on genocide, that you yourself have asked God these questions. What did you two come with? I'm seriously interested.

 

I'll assume that if you have a firm and unequivical stand on seatbelts, that you yourself have asked God these questions. What did you two come with? I'm seriously interested.

 

I'll assume that if you have a firm and unequivical stand on representative government, that you yourself have asked God these questions. What did you two come with? I'm seriously interested.

 

I'll assume that if you have a firm and unequivical stand on child abuse, that you yourself have asked God these questions. What did you two come with? I'm seriously interested.

 

I'll assume that if you have a firm and unequivical stand on infanticide (nonclinical), that you yourself have asked God these questions. What did you two come with? I'm seriously interested.

 

The list goes on and on..

 

If you would like to use this line of thinking, feel free to do so. But please do not limit it to one issue. When you begin with absolute faith, yes FAITH, that human abortion is a sacred act untouchable by lowly society or government, then you will go through all distortions and refusal of reason to justify it. One such tactic is the limited anarchy ploy. 'All basis for law is based on false certainty.' or 'The government has no right to regulate human behavior.' If you take this position up to justify institutional mass-murder, then do not throw it down when you leave the abortion thread. Take your maxims to their conclusions. Become a true and consistent anarchist. Grow a beard and dynamite bus stations if you feel you must. But like Gabriel Syme, I doubt the seriousness of your anarchism.

 

I, for one, am finished with this thread and those who defend torture and homocide for profit.

 

"The wise men know all evil things

Under the twisted trees,

Where the perverse in pleasure pine

And men are weary of green wine

And sick of crimson seas."

[packsaddle]

Adrianvs, I hope you have a nice day too

[Rooster7]

Littlebillie,

 

here's what you said about me: "You claim that its the mothers risk to take." And here's what I actually said: '...here's where I intellectually take the PC cop-out of individual choice"'

 

Frankly, I thought my entire post was full of references to my indecision, still weighing all sides, and so on.

 

I thought since we were discussing abortion and you were taking the PC cop-out of individual choice, it was safe to assume that you met the mothers choice and her assumption of risk. Also, I failed to see how your indecision nullified this statement - so I addressed it. If youve reconsidered your position, I will declare a cease fire.

 

As far as my Q&A session with God, I never said we (those who query God) should know all of the answers. I tried to express this - Whenever we are in doubt, we should never presume God's Will or attempt to act as if we do. If we truly humble ourselves and admit our limited knowledge (not only in regard to when does life begin but also in regard to Gods Will), abortion would never be an option. At best, by all appearances, it is murder. At worst, its out-and-out rebellion against God.

 

Packsaddle,

 

Making them illegal just changes the venue, but if that is all it takes to satisfy you I suppose that's good enough.

 

Here too we disagree. Making them illegal sets a moral standard. Those that wish to break that standard, do so at a risk to themselves physically and also under penalty of law. Furthermore, the law in and of itself sends a message to those that come under it - our society has deemed this choice to be morally unacceptable.

 

[littlebillie]

"If you would like to use this line of thinking, feel free to do so. But please do not limit it to one issue."

 

 

ahhh - I begin to understand why your posts seem to remind me of core dumps! Apparently you don't recognize the validity of a single topic in a thread or conversation, and additionally feel a need to apply ANY comment to EVERY topic...

 

a strange kind of dialogic Turrette's?

 

USE LIMITS! FREE YOURSELF! You have nothing to gain but time!

 

 

 

[evmori]

So women would go to back ally's to get abortions. So?

 

No one has explained why abortion isnt murder but if a pregnant women is shot & dies & the unborn fetus dies, the shooter is charged with a double homocide! What is the difference?

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Laurie]

The comparison of abortion to the death penalty is a tough one for me. Unless we can say that the new life is somehow deserving of a penalty, then to compare an unborn baby to a criminal is not comparing apples to apples.

 

I have put my money where my mouth is, so to speak. Woman are smart and capable, and in deciding to make a woman's choice for her, we all sell her short. The choices began long before the pregnancy. The consequences last long after the abortion.

 

Some women don't know they have help available. Some get kicked out of their homes. Some face discrimination issues. Most face financial difficulties. I gave financial help, clothing, layettes, diapers, food, found homes for women, gave references to legal aid (free legal aid), references to low-cost and free pre-natal care, and support. I will never support the act of abortion, but I will support the woman who felt it was only her choice or was lied to and found out later that it wasn't a simple procedure that would shortly be forgotten. In counseling, I learned some interesting things, and these are from the women *and* men who I met with face-to-face.

 

Those who had abortions in the past and were now faced with continuing a pregnancy:

 

I can't do this again.

I had to have this baby so I could make up for the one I killed.

I never forget the day of my baby's birthday...or what should have been his/her birthday.

My boyfriend/fiance/husband left me because I had the abortion...but he said to have it or he would leave.

 

In one case, I got permission to make a call home to a young woman's parents. She was contemplating suicide, gave me a specific date. The date was the date that her baby was to have been born. She had aborted. She is alive, married, has at least one child today--over 12 years after our meeting.

 

From those who had abortions and called me later:

 

I know you told me what was wrong about going through with it, but you also didn't judge me. I did it...I had the abortion. Now, I don't know what to do. It hurts more than I could have imagined.

 

I can't believe I killed my baby. Will it ever stop hurting?

 

From those who, against all odds and with little support, decided not to have the abortion:

 

[with pride] Look at my baby!

 

Thank you for helping me. I couldn't do it alone, and I couldn't afford help. You helped me at no cost.

 

I am so glad I did this. I can't imagine life without this baby.

 

Some reasons given at the decision making time:

 

I will not give my baby up for adoption; I'd rather have it killed than raised by someone else.

 

My parents will kill me.

 

My boyfriend/fiance/husband will kill me. (Calling the police sometimes helped.)

 

I don't have the money/time/desire/etc. to have a baby now.

 

Interestingly enough, though these concerns are valid because the feelings are real, women choosing life often were not killed for doing so, were not thrown out of their homes, did find resources to get by. 12+ years later, I happen to know of some of these families who are doing just fine. I stopped counseling when I had my first child and because the emotional toll was high; I trained about 8 others counselors before leaving my position. They have had similar experiences.

 

So, though I will speak up for the unborn and do all I can to protect that life, I recognize that the legal right to abortion has been provided to all women. Women deserve to know the risks (I know for a fact that not all clinics tell the risks), to have the chance to make a decision free of pressure, to have support in making a choice for life but freedom from condemnation for making what I believe to be a wrong choice. That isn't easy. It's far easier for me to hop on my soapbox and want to say that this is just wrong, wrong, wrong! But I have names, faces, stories to put to women facing this decision. I understand the pressures.

 

I will add one more thing: there is, and this surprised me, a lack of support for women who choose life! In fact, I learned with my first of 3 high-risk pregancies of my own, that there is little support for life at all. When I had difficulty, the ER doctor suggested an immediate abortion for what might be a problem. I was considered a "problem patient" because I refused to sign consent forms allowing the procedure. Then, with my forcing the issue, I was given an ultrasound and learned that my baby was just fine. With my second, I was told I'd be better off just not bothering continuing the pregnancy. Why? From the medical professionals: "it will be too hard on you". What was hard was that I had to fight every step of the way for support for my children to be born.

 

Capital punishment/death penalty: I tend to think that the death penalty isn't quite cruel enough considering what some criminals have done. I am still trying to reconcile that to my respect for all human life, and I can't do so very well. So, on this issue, though I once helped to free a boy who killed his own father (I can't imagine what 18-yr-old idealistic me was thinking!), I am not sure on this issue today.

 

 

 

[Laurie]

Ed,

 

My opinion, short and sweet, is that abortion is murder. It is the taking of a human life. If a person is put to death for a crime, that is different in this way: the person committing the crime did wrong, whereas the unborn baby simply began to live. Is putting a criminal to death right? I'd like to say that if law supports it, then it must be right. The problem is that the law supports abortion, and I have never and will never believe that to be right.

 

Laurie

 

[bsat4jb]

 

It has been said on this thread that if abortion were illegal, expectant mothers would resort to back alleys and foreign clinics. However, many of these mothers, though they are trying to kill their baby, are law abiding citizens, so making abortion illegal would prevent many abortions.

 

----------

 

Packsaddle:

 

"...where society decides to kill it's members, I do share a responsibilty for such deaths..."

 

If you do not try to make abortion illegal, then would you not also share the responsibility of those deaths, since you did nothing to prevent them? And no, this line of reasoning does not apply to you being guilty of murder because you didn't stop the killer, being guilty of robbery because you didn't stop the robber,etc. Those are illegal, you cannot do anything else about it(unless you know someone who plans to rob a bank or kill someone and you don't report them).

 

Packsaddle, on a side note:

You go along with abortion because it is the status quo. In response, I offer you this: "Do not follow the crowd in doing wrong." -Exodus 23:2a

 

----------

 

On the death penalty, as I look at Leviticus 20, about punishment for sin, I see these:

"must be put to death", "must be put to death", "must be put to death", "must be put to death", "must be put to death", "they must be burned in the fire", "must be put to death".

And that's not even for murder! Criminals should be happy to get off so easy!

[packsaddle]

bsat4jb, Do you advocate following, to the letter, everything mandated in Leviticus? The Torah? Or just the parts you like?

[Adrianvs]

"Adrianvs, I hope you have a nice day too :)"

 

packsaddle,

 

While I don't take you to be the kind of person who takes disagreements personally, I want to assure you that while I may spar somewhat hard on select issues, I don't intend any disrespect or rudeness. I tend to aim at the highest profile, so if you felt targeted, that is a GOOD thing. If this were a thread on capital punishment, we would likely be working the same side. (Assuming, of course, that your opposition to capital punishment isn't just rhetorical.) haha, JUST KIDDING..(This message has been edited by Adrianvs)

[packsaddle]

Adrianvs, thanks. For a few moments back there, I was just a little concerned for you. Not to worry, I have a thick skin and even if an attack is meant to be personal, that's ok with me. You know, sometimes that just seems to upset some folks more. Oh well.

[bsat4jb]

Packsaddle,

There are parts of Leviticus and the Torah that dictate methods of sacrifice and ceremony to worship God which no longer apply to Christians, or anyone else for that matter, under the New Covenant, where Jesus paid the final sacrifice. But I believe and advocate the following of, to the letter, everthing that wasn't disposed of in the New Covenant.

 

BTW, you never answered my question about abortion.