OA - Gay jokes OK?

[SagerScout]

My son and his buddy just came home from the local OA fall fellowship. They had a great time. This was their first "fun" weekend with the OA as both recently completed their Ordeal.

 

But their only complaint was this: both observed that the other OA members seemed to only know vulgar jokes with homosexuals as the butt. I do not have examples as they both declined to repeat them, for which I think I may be grateful. My son's buddy apparently told the

other guys to cut it out, as he didn't appreciate jokes like that. He pointed out that he knew some guys (outside scouting) that maybe were gay and they were his friends.

 

I told him that I was proud of him for speaking his opinion, which apparently stopped the jokefest.

 

Does the forum agree? Should I or he have done something else?

[saltheart]

It's not your fight. If the boys feel comfortable with their actions, and if you feel comfortable with their actions, and you've expressed yourself to them both, then that should be the end of your involvement. Unless the situation was one of physical or emotional abuse, you've done your job by being the sounding board for the experience, their feelings, and their actions.

 

For the rest of their lives, they will face situations in which they may find the actions of others reprehensible and uncomfortable. Allowing them to learn to deal with that now, independently of you (unless there's a safety issue) is the best thing you can do for them. That they've already formed their opinions on the issue (not that those might not change somewhat over time) indicates that they can think on their feet and stand for whatever their beliefs are. That's a good thing in life.

 

Your biggest part in the play is to be there when they need to talk about issues such as these.(This message has been edited by saltheart)

[MarkNoel]

I'd have to disagree slightly with saltheart on this, because I come from the point of being one of those kids silently listening to the jokes being told. This is more than just standing up for something that you believe in, or addressing something that makes you uncomfortable. For some kids, this IS a safety and issue and borders on emotional abuse.

 

Young men who are gay typically discover this for themselves at a median age of about 13, but it currently takes about 4 years before they start 'coming out' to other people, usually starting with one or two very close friends. In the meantime, however, they are often surrounded by jokes and abusive language like this, which often leads to higher incidence of self-destructive behavior, depression, substance abuse, etc. One study even showed that in some high schools, the average student heard the word "fag" or "faggot" used about 40 times a day.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the moral obligation you have to stop that sort of language is the same that you would have if a group of the boys were telling "nigger" jokes in front of African-American boys.

 

I believe that what your son did was absolutely the right thing, and actions like his will go a long way towards improving the environment for ALL boys in the scouting program.

 

YiS,

-Mark

 

 

[kasane]

I am very glad to see the boys were confident enough to go against the prevailing peer pressure at the OA fellowship and tell them to cut out the vulgur jokes.

 

However, my question is - if the slurs were made about another ethnic group would you as a parent continue to allow your son/child to be member of that group?

 

There are many boys (I would consider any young man under 16 a boy) who are still forming their opinions, morals, ideals, etc in life and are members of OA. Exposure in a peer group that condones this kind of behaviour generally results in another young man with the same opinions, morals and ideals. If the purpose of a fellowship weekend is to have everyone sitting around telling jokes about someone different than they are, then I would reconsider my son's membership in that group and contact the local chapter and lay a very very big complaint.

 

 

[KoreaScouter]

There are a whole category of jokes that poke fun at a recognizable group -- helps make sure your audience "gets it". Some can be benign (sports team affiliation, for example), and some are not (racial, ethnic, sexual). Regardless of the group, condoning this kind of humor is a tacit endorsement of stereotyping. Especially with adolescents, this isn't something we should be trying to develop.

 

KS

[andrewcanoe]

Offensive jokes are offensive no matter where or when they are told . It dosn't matter if a member of that group is present or not. The word should go out at a roundtable or other adult meeting that this kind of behavior is occuring at a gathering of "Honor campers",then the leaders can address it at individual troop and crew meetings.

[acco40]

Boys of this age group (11 - 17) start using terms such as "homo", "pervert", "bastard", etc. quite frequently. No I do not condone the use of these terms but am not surprised by it. When I hear it used by the boys in our troop I tell them to "knock it off." These words and phrases are new (hopefully) to the boys and they are testing their limits. Most are just trying to fit in.

 

I commend the boys for speaking up if they do not like the use of these terms. I feel it shows maturity.

 

 

[eisely]

I think these boys did well, and did honor to themselves and the ideals of scouting. It is very unusual for adolescents to call one another on this sort of thing, and it probably has more impact than if adults do it. If, as adults, we silently condone this sort of humor, we are teaching the wrong lessons by our omissions.

[Fat Old Guy]

Gee "Will & Grace" is filled with homosexual basing and it wins awards even though the stars are heterosexual. Odd how the double standards come about.

 

 

[Bob White]

Many of the characters on the show Fog refers to would not be eligible for membership in the BSA. As a scout leader I do not expect them to meet the same standards as I, and others in the scouting program, would expect of them.

 

I agree that insulting remarks about any group is inappropriate behavior.

 

Bob White

[Mike F]

The guys did GREAT in speaking up! Most of the offenders probably knew it was wrong and were shamed into knocking it off. All it took was for one new guy to speak up. No big deal - no federal case - no screaming and yelling. Just a minor course correction. That's worth more than a dozen hours of mandatory sensitivity training.

 

Brings to mind a favorite quote:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." -- Edmund Burke

 

In addition to doing good, I suspect your son and his friend will have gained confidence from this experience and will be ready to speak up again when it is required.

[acco40]

FOG, "homosexual basing", please explain? Note: three out of the four major characeters are in fact heterosexual (as relayed by the media).

[Fat Old Guy]

"homosexual bashing," it was a typo. Okay?

[Fat Old Guy]

"As far as I'm concerned, the moral obligation you have to stop that sort of language is the same that you would have if a group of the boys were telling "nigger" jokes in front of African-American boys."

 

I'll be that you've never voiced a vocal complain about a black commedian telling "honkey" and "whitey" jokes.

[cjmiam]

Given the fact that this took place at an OA event, I agree that it is disheartening. The Order of the Arrow is to provide leadership and set the example. However, the other OA members seems quite broad to me. Was the lodge chief telling the jokes? Was the chapter chief telling the jokes? Or was it some fellow members that were staying in the same campsite or found hanging out by the commissary? There is no doubt that some Scouts are extremely vulgar. However, I wouldnt say that the Order of the Arrow is responsible for what is more of a societal problem. And for that matter, they arent to blame either. Most of those fellowships require that the members be responsible and act as leaders. Many times if they stay as a chapter, the only person really paying any attention to them is the chapter advisor. This certainly is not a new problem. I certainly wouldnt condemn the OA because of it. If it really bothers you, contact your local chapter advisor. However, theres not much you can do except commend you kids for being Scoutlike and respectful.