Cradle of Liberty Council loses land deal with Philadelphia

[MarkNoel]

I thought about posting this in the previous thread, but since that discussion has... ahem... devolved a bit, I'm starting a new one:

 

The Philadelphia Inquirer reports this morning that the city of Philadelphia has notified the Cradle of Liberty Council that it will be ending that council's free use of city property.

 

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/6836417.htm

 

"""

David H. Lipson Jr., board chairman of Cradle of Liberty, said that

if the local council lost its city offices, it would work from its other

office, the Roger S. Firestone Scout Resource Center in Wayne.

"I think we would consolidate to one location," Lipson said, adding

that the council would not be able to afford to pay for space in the city.

. . . .

Lipson said that council executives were going to ask the city

representatives for time to work out the problems.

"Give us some time and some good planning. I think we can bring

about change, and everyone will be happy. We say give us time. We want to

end discrimination in Philadelphia. It's painful because you wish it would

happen for a lot of reasons. Discrimination is wrong," Lipson said.

"""

 

YiS,

-Mark

 

[LovetoCamp]

Change the subject line to read "Children lose".

[NJCubScouter]

I made a suggestion in the other thread but nobody responded to, so I'll make it again. Since it seems that this council cannot afford to pay rent in Philadelphia, and is being thrown out of its free space due to a policy it does not support, why don't those from around the country who do support the anti-gay policy step forward with some cash so they can pay rent? I am not suggesting any particular way of doing this, it could be done by council, by unit, by voluntary donations, the specifics are not important. What is important is that those who support this policy should put their money where their collective mouths are. (And yes, I realize that to the extent this action results from the ban on atheists, one of those mouths is mine. So I guess it should be done by the councils. )

[dsteele]

Nice suggestion, NJ, but the odds of other councils paying to support are slim to none. I suppose there may be a council or two in a financial position where they could send a donation to a Philadelphia -- but it would be a rarity. It could also be offensive to the donors who gave to support local programs for money to be spent on Scouts in Philadelphia.

 

Furthermore, there is what is being touted in non-profit circles as a non-profit depression currently. Positions are being cut and/or simply not filled and fund-raising is a very difficult proposition.

 

Currently, for example, in the council I'm serving, I'm the Assistant Scout Executive and the Learning for Life Executive. The LFL executive moved to Ohio a couple of months ago and we're in a position where we're forced to save money by not hiring another to replace her until after we see the results of the popcorn sale.

 

Just a fact o' Life.

 

DS

[Bob White]

Well Mark let's take a look at what has been acomplished here.

 

>Scout units continue to meet on their regular meeting nights.

 

>The mission, aims, and methods of the BSA remain unchanged.

 

>The membership policies remain unchanged

 

>The inability of the council to alter those policies remains unchanged.

 

>The scouts will have to pay the same user fee as any other youth group, sounds fair to me.

 

Wow, that was some impact! I hope every law-suit is equally as successful.

 

Bob White

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

DS, I am aware that the chances of my suggestion actually being followed are slim to none. I never thought otherwise, and that's part of my point. Scouting (nationwide) is either unwilling, or unable, or both, to pay for the consequences of its policies, which affect different communities differently because different states and localities have different laws and policies regarding giving special favors to groups who discriminate.

 

I am aware of the financial problems Scout councils face, in fact my district was eliminated and the pieces merged with other districts, resulting in a bunch of renaming, effective the beginning of this month. Over the summer, both council service centers (probably a leftover from the two councils that were merged around 1999) were closed and a single new (though not newly built, I don't think, and probably rented) center was opened. I also know that other non-profits are having difficulty raising funds, but I wonder whether the BSA has brought a higher level of difficulty upon itself, at least in certain areas.

 

Bob, I have to wonder whether we are reading the same article. The SE of the council (identified in the story as the "executive director" but the council's web site makes clear that he is the SE) says this:

 

Dwyer said moving from the city would destroy the city scouting program.

 

"What it takes away is our urban presence totally," Dwyer said. "It takes us out of Philadelphia. We can't support it without the dollars and without the presence. We become, all of a sudden, a suburban program. But the kids who need it most are the ones in the city."

 

That sounds to me like kids and the program are going to be impacted.

 

Here is another quote from a council official that I thought was interesting:

 

Lipson said that council executives were going to ask the city representatives for time to work out the problems.

 

"Give us some time and some good planning. I think we can bring about change, and everyone will be happy. We say give us time. We want to end discrimination in Philadelphia. It's painful because you wish it would happen for a lot of reasons. Discrimination is wrong," Lipson said.

 

One wonders what exactly he thinks he is going to "work out." And it does not sound to me like he is just talking about Learning for Life being non-discriminatory, as in the previous story about the United Way funding. This story involves the council headquarters, and the city's policy is not going to be satisfied just by holding up LFL as being non-discriminatory. He talking about "bringing about change." Change in what, I wonder?

[Laurie]

(This message has been edited by Laurie)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

An op-ed about the situation:

http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/local/6846122.htm

 

ENOUGH ALREADY.

 

It's time for the local Boy Scouts chapter to take the lead in protesting what has been a hateful national policy of gay discrimination embraced by the Boy Scouts of America.

 

The Cradle of Liberty Council did it once before - in June, when it adopted an anti-discrimination policy.

 

That prompted the national council's threat to revoke the Cradle's charter and replace its board.

 

How did the 84,000-member, ironically named Cradle of Liberty respond to the pressure?

 

It caved and, for good measure, booted outspoken gay scout Greg Lattera from its ranks.

 

It was a panicked, spineless thing to do. The way for the local council to right this wrong is to again reverse its stand - for real.

 

What do they have left to lose?

 

As a result of its actions, the council already has lost $900,000 in funding - almost a fifth of its annual budget - from foundations that won't support its discrimination policy. This money, executive director William Dwyer III told me, directly funds scouting programs in the city.

 

Without it, he said, the programs will "eventually go away."

 

...

 

Meantime, board chairman David Lipson thinks time is what his group needs most.

 

"This board is totally committed to changing the discrimination policy," he said, sounding desperate. "But pulling our funding, pulling the lease - that's not going to help. If we reverse the policy, and the board gets fired, we might be replaced with a board not as committed to change as we are. What will that accomplish? What we need is time."

 

How much? I ask.

 

"One to two years," he said. "Hopefully less."

 

So, I ask him, if the scouts had a discrimination policy against blacks, say, or Jews, would it be fair to ask them to wait one to two years?

 

There is a very long silence, followed by a very heavy sigh.

 

"Look, if I were a member of the gay community, I would not think a 24-month wait is fair," he said. "But we're working as fast as we can."

 

The Cradle of Liberty's own Web site states, "Boys learn a great deal by watching how adults conduct themselves."

 

I wonder what our Boy Scouts are learning these days?

 

[evmori]

You can't compare blacks & Jews to gays. Being gay is a lifestyle while being black and/or Jewish isn't. It's like comapring apples & oranges. There is no comparison. The gay community always seems to cite this!

 

Bob,

Excellent post!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

Well, in the above article, a married heterosexual woman asked, not the "gay community". And it was concerning a civil rights aspect - the current arrangement violates the Fair Practices Ordinance, which would be true if the BSA excluded blacks or Jews, or gays or atheists.

 

If you still don't like it, just compare Jews to atheists.

[LovetoCamp]

At tonight's meeting, right after the Pledge of Allegiance, our agenda now says "Troop Prayer" led by ASPL. I think I'll add a short addendum to the ASPL's prayer. The example the boys will see is me, the man who takes them camping, the man who takes them hiking, the man who goes to their church, the man who works on merit badges with them, the man their parents entrust them to, and I'm going to say a prayer asking God to work harder on those atheists out amongst us, so that they might find the light. That's the example a dozen or so boys will see tonight.

[CubsRgr8]

Merlyn, Boy Scouts are learning that actions and decisions have consequences, some favorable and some not. They are learning that some positions of BSA are not popular with certain segments of society.

 

BSA is not about being popular (thank God!). BSA is about a million adult volunteers preparing young people (about three million) to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. Avowed homosexuals and atheists are not considered appropriate role models for those values, and are therefore excluded from membership.

 

[CubsRgr8]

Merlyn, Boy Scouts are learning that actions and decisions have consequences, some favorable and some not. They are learning that some positions of BSA are not popular with certain segments of society.

 

BSA is not about being popular (thank God!). BSA is about a million adult volunteers preparing young people (about three million) to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. Avowed homosexuals and atheists are not considered appropriate role models for those values, and are therefore excluded from membership.

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

And an organization that didn't consider blacks or Jews to be good role models would likewise run counter to Philadelphia's Fair Practices Ordinance; what's your point?

[littlebillie]

"Being gay is a lifestyle while being black and/or Jewish isn't. It's like comapring apples & oranges"

 

well, just for the record, the jury's still out on this. undoubtedly, for some, it's a 'lifestyle' choice. for others, it may very well be unalterable hard-wiring.

 

and besides, it looks like Michael Jackson has made being white a lifestyle choice, so maybe the two aren't so far apart... :-) (it's a JOKE, people!)