A Question for Merlyn...

[evmori]

OK Merlyn since you won't answer my questions I can only figure you are a sham. Doesn't suprise me. I knew that all along. Merlyn, you can't ask someone to defend their beliefs if you are unwilling to offer proof for yours.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

Ed, you won't tell me what parts of childbirth, leaves changing colors, or spontaneous remission require gods to work.

 

There is all sorts of material on the web about these subjects and how they work, and none of them require gods. Sorry, I don't feel like being your private, unpaid tutor by posting megabytes on subjects you should have learned in school.

 

If you want to assert that gods are required for any of the above, please specify how. You seem to have the idea gods are required, but you can't point to what they actually DO.

[Fat Old Guy]

Ed,

 

What Merlyn can't accept is that physics and by extension chemistry are part of a grand design.

[NJCubScouter]

I'm always amazed that anyone thinks that it is possible to prove that God, god, gods or any deity exist, OR do not exist. There's no proof either way. It's a matter of "faith," right? We all believe what we choose. I also don't understand why it's such a big deal. As I believe it was Benjamin Franklin (a Deist who disclaimed any belief in the divinity of Christ), who said (something like), we will all find out in our own time what is correct and what is not -- though not until we've passed on.

 

And, I notice that people keeping asking Merlyn to explain things. I don't see why that is relevant. The absence of an explanation does not prove anything.

[evmori]

Merlyn,

I'm the one who asked YOU the question. I will not defend my position until you defend yours. And the reason you haven't answered the questions is because you CAN'T defend you position. Doesn't suprise me.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[dsteele]

I have to admit that when I first started reading the posts of Merlyn, I was really torked off. I should say cheesed off, living in Wisconsin as I do.

 

Now I have to admit that I feel some pity for him. His beliefs are sincere, he does not fake his arguments -- although he does dodge the questions he doesn't like.

 

I feel sorry for him because he does not know and will ever deny even if he feels it the peace that comes from a belief in God -- no matter what form that God may take.

 

Believe in whatever higher powers you like as long as you believe in something and you'll always be welcome in my house.

 

As far as I am concerned, God is not an option.

 

DS

[acco40]

Some of the most pre-eminent scientists have written fascinating stories about their belief in a God (Hawking, Einstein, etc.) The Catholic Church has been dogged by a belief that it is "anti-science" since the days of Galileo. However, they run their own observatory and the Jesuits have made tremendous contributions to science. Science and religion are not mutually exclusive. When one side of the debate uses the logic of faith and the fact that God has a plan we can't comprehend, not much logic can change that.

 

Merlyn, surely you must understand that for many, believing in a higher being does offer them comfort and for them, an improvement in their life. Many medical studies have documented how "having faith" and prayer have had tangible benefits to the afflicted. No, no research attributes this to a supreme being and science does not truly understand the mind / body interaction to date and the interaction of a higher being has not been ruled out altogether. Even with no formal training or education, humans have "created" religion in many forms in almost all cultures.

 

I fully understand your concern about religion's influence in public education, law, and politics. I cringe when I hear our president utter such ridiculous non-sense myself. What you have to realize is that many people associate atheism with lawlessness, hedonism, perversion, etc. They can't comprehend "goodness" without a parental figure like a supreme being watching over them. Some use organized religion to help themselves. The vast majority use it to help others. If you would like to promote atheism or battle to keep religion out of your life, take the road of following commandments 5 - 10 (Protestant version) and "turn the other cheek" to the first four.

 

The lawyer, engineer, doctor post by Eamon reminded me of the following: God surely must have been a civil engineer. For only a civil engineer would put a waste disposal system smack dab in the middle of a recreational area.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Some of the most pre-eminent scientists have written fascinating stories about their belief in a God (Hawking, Einstein, etc.)

 

Hawking:

"I do not believe in a personal God." Hawking has this canned answer programmed into his voice synthesizer when he is asked about god by reporters.

 

Einstein:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." [Albert Einstein, 1954, from "Albert Einstein: The Human Side", edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press] "

 

Both have used god as a metaphor when writing about physics, but it would be rash to think they're talking about their personal beliefs in an anthropomorphic god.

 

Merlyn, surely you must understand that for many, believing in a higher being does offer them comfort and for them, an improvement in their life.

 

Why do you think I don't realize this?

[OldGreyEagle]

Merlyn,

 

On a separate but related topic, I thought I saw something last week about the ACLU making an attempt to get crosses and other religious symbols off all federal land, is that right?

[NJCubScouter]

Merlyn, I want to make sure I am understanding you. You are not equating the absence of belief in an "anthropomorphic" or "personal" God with atheism, are you? My understanding has been that someone with that belief CAN be an atheist, or can instead still believe in a concept of a "creator" or "God" (under whatever name) and thus be a Deist -- not an atheist. My way of telling the difference would be that if someone says "I do not believe in (g)od," they are an atheist, but if someone says, "I do not believe in a personal god," they are trying to indicate that they are NOT an atheist -- but they also are not a member of what we might call a "traditional religion" either.

 

Do you disagree?

 

I remember reading Hawking's book (the one for non-rocket scientists, a Brief History of Time) when it came out in paperback (probably 15 years or so ago?) and becoming sort of confused about his references to God as being this sort of vague concept without being very specific about what he actually believed. I suppose he might have been trying to avoid having the book banned or burned or shunned or whatever.

 

But, if I am correct, what he actually believes is not atheism, but some form of deism -- just like some of our Founding Fathers such as Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Tom Paine (though arguably he was an atheist), and according to some but not all historians, George Washington. I remember reading an article once about whether George Washington was a "Christian" or not, and the conclusion was "not," but there was an acknowledgement of disagreement with other authorities.

 

So I just want to get that straight. It is personally important to me for reasons I have written about in the past.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

OGE writes:

I thought I saw something last week about the ACLU making an attempt to get crosses and other religious symbols off all federal land, is that right?

 

There are a number of lawsuits pending against various crosses on public land, many of them from the ACLU, but not some type of class-action suit against "all public land", as that would include sites like public forums and cemetaries, where the ACLU has fought for the right of people to erect religious symbols.

 

There are suits over crosses in Mojave National Preserve, Mt. Helix, Mt. Davidson, Mt. Soledad, and probably others. A number of crosses have been removed from government land, such as Santa Barbara, Oklahoma City, Kolekole Pass, Eugene, etc, but not all of these involved the ACLU.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

njcubscouter:

Merlyn, I want to make sure I am understanding you. You are not equating the absence of belief in an "anthropomorphic" or "personal" God with atheism, are you?

 

No.

[Achilleez]

Common people,

 

Can't you realize that for many people, myself included, atheism is not an abstance of anything. It is not void of anything, it makes perfect sense to us. Everything on Earth has a scientific explanation, and if it doesn't, it will in the future. I can live perfectly comfortable in the knowledge that there is no super-being living above me. I am alone in this and I can accept that. Of course we are all alone, we are individual conscientious (pardon my spelling) beings that live and interact with other individuals. It is not discomforting or depressing not to beleive in God. Infact, to many atheists the whole concept of an all-powerful ghost up in the sky sounds silly and ridiculous.

 

I grew up a Mennonite household, which is about the most conservative area you can go in Ontario. I beleived in God probably until around the age of 12 or 13, although I continue to go to church to this day for my families sake. But when I took Mathematics, Chemistry, Physics, and Biology, I saw that there are perfectly reasonable explanations for everything going on around us. (Personally I am confused by people who claim to accept both science and fundamental Christianity, simply because they directly cross paths)Complex patterns on leaves may seem overwhelmingly intelligent, but really that are just fractals, efficient patterns that have evolved a certain way. This was also combined with the overwhelming evidence that the bible is flawed. If Genesis is accurate, then the scientists who claim that we have million year old rocks must be dirty liars. Called it divinely inspired if you will, but it was written by human beings. It was also re-written by other human beings hundreds of times, spawning countless different versions, some with more or less books than others. This inconsistancy can only lead me to beleive that it innacurate.

 

While I do not currently beleive in God, I respect the right for others to do so. I do not claim that there is no creator, I simply say that there is not enough conclusive evidence to prove that one exists at this time.

 

I still take my family to church for two reasons.

1) I think my children should have the opportunity to explore faith and pursue it if they wish.

2) I beleive the church instills positive results on my family, and it is a worthy organization which provides releif for many, regardless on what beleif system it is based.

 

Being an atheist does not mean rejecting the values taught in the bible. All are welcome in my home, and I always pick up hitch-hikers (not in American though )

 

I can respect that you beleive in God. So can you respect that I do not beleive in God?

[dan]

Achilleez

Why are you posting here? The other atheist is here to destroy the BSA. Why are you here? You are not even in the BSA.

Does your son know you are an atheist?

I will need more data before I can answer if I respect you.

I will also say a prayer for you and your family tonight.

[LovetoCamp]

You mean why is the only rancher in Canada that has never owned a firearm here? The rancher who owns two businesses but hangs out in coffeehouses before work??? The Ontario Rancher and business owner who is a "firm liberal supporter"???? I want to know how many ranchers anywhere are liberal? None. This cat's just a BS artist. My Ka-Ka Meter was redlining long ago. Activistamongus. This time he stays ignored.