evmori Posted August 18, 2003 Author Share Posted August 18, 2003 Thanks Laurie. I just got home & got the book out, too. The point I am trying to make is in Webelos there is a definition of active. In Boy Scouts, it isn't. Sure on page 169 of the handbook it says takes part in meetings & other things. That's all! Seems widely open to interpretation by the PLC or the CO if they so deem. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 >>Many spouses have asked me for a definintion of "overly active." Any suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 Hmmm...overly active. Could that be spending too much time on the boards? LOL! Ed, you're welcome. I did some reading, and here's my take. I remain open to correction all. Let's say a troop meets weekly year-round. A patrol leader is elected, and he then has the responsibility for that patrol. Wouldn't that mean that, during his term, he would be required to meet weekly at least? He may have other meetings as well. That would make him active. Likewise, any other Scout with a particular rank requirement involving a specific job description and/or service hours would need to be involved regularly. It would seem that the Scouts would need to try for every meeting. If they did not, they would not be fulfilling their roles. That in turn would let down others in the troop and/or patrol. To be active, as Bob has said, begins to be required when a Scout begins to work on Star. What the books all imply is that the Scout needs to be active--as in at the meetings, going on trips, providing service hours of some sort--in order to advance. If the Scout doesn't care whether he advances or not, then he wouldn't be active. If he does want to be active, then he'll be there. Disclaimer: he'll be there as often as able; the stuff of life does happen to interfere with meetings Perhaps a specific number of meetings isn't given because it's more important to meet goals over a stretch of time. Am I over simplifying this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted August 18, 2003 Share Posted August 18, 2003 Your very close Laurie. The explaination is vague for a purpose. One that has been discussed before but not wholly accepted by leaders who want to "control" scouts. Active is more than being present at events. it is taking part in the success of the patrol and troop. Sometimes that can even be accomplished without being present through the use of good leadership, planning and communication tools. The important thing again is knowing the needs and charachteristics of each scout. Who is the best person to judge if the scout has met the expectations of the requirement? The scout himself. Talk to the scout. Ask them at the beginning of each rank advancement what being actively involved means to them. Make sure the program keeps the promises made in the Scout Handbook so that the scout has reason ann opportunity to be active. Talk with the scout periodically about his participation, give recognition when it is earned and counseling when needed. When the time comes for advancement you should be able to ask the scout if he feels he has contributed to the success of his patrol and troop and he should, if he is ready to advance, answer positively and give examples to support his opinion. A good leader approaches this through individual knowledge of the scout, and not by the use of blanket attendance numbers. Hope this helps, Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty_Doyle Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 I'm sorry. I fail to see how the Webelos Scout definition is any more specific than the Boy Scout one. As a Cubmaster and a former den leader, this is how I would interpret it, last first: "working on den projects" When the boy is there, which relates to the first clause, "good attendance". "paying den dues" Some packs collect den dues, and some, as above, do not. We offered a net cash discount - pay $25 at the beginning of the year as opposed to $1 a meeting for 35 meetings. So, how do you pro-rate attendance if you are usuing den dues? Not an effective barometer. "having good attendance" Like the Jesuits taught me, first, define your terms. What's "good"? 100%? 90%? 75%? more than 50%? What about 25% if that is really all the meetings/events the boy can attend since his single mon works nights and weekends, and he can't always get a ride? We asked the boys in our Webelos I den what they thought the percentage should be for the Attendance Award. (The current Cubmnaster had said "Perfect attendance"). The 10 year olds came up with more than 75% of Pack Nights, more than 50% of Pack events, and more than 75% of den meetings. Attending district/council events could count towards any of the above slots. They gave parent's work, school homework, sports, and family events as reasons why someone who wants to go couldn't make everything. We went with their definition. Of the 6 boys, all six did better than 80% across all the categories, and 4 had 100%. They all got the medal. We (the two leaders) would have had easier percentages. Like Bob says, you need to know the boys and their circumstances and let them help (at Cub Scouts level)in the determination of contribution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 If a spouse has to ask for a definition of "overactive", then the other spouse is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted August 19, 2003 Author Share Posted August 19, 2003 Bob, According to the handbook, there is no real definition of being active. You are saying "Active is more than being present at events. it is taking part in the success of the patrol and troop. Sometimes that can even be accomplished without being present through the use of good leadership, planning and communication tools." While I agree with this, it is your interpretation of being active. The handbook doesn't really say that. Now the Webelos handbook seems to be more specific. I guess what I don't understand is why is "being active" better defined for Webelos than Boy Scouts? Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acco40 Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 OGE, I think you hit the nail on the head on that one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 Ed Do you feel you are an active participant on this forum? Do you take part in the success of the board? And yet, you have never physically "attended" anything. You have simply used available communication tools to do your part. I was able to coordinate the skills and participation of three other board members using the leadership styles of scouting and we succeeded in our task without ever physically meeting. Can a PL meet with his APL away from the troop meeting, over the phone or internet, and continue to effectively coordinate the leadership of the patrol? Absolutely! Active is getting the job done. What that means and how it is accomplished will vary in form and content with each scout. A good leader will A) provide a program that scouts will want to attend, and B) recognize the needs and characteristics of each scout and work with them within their own framework. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted August 20, 2003 Author Share Posted August 20, 2003 I guess I'm not making myself clear. active is better defined at the Webelos level than it is at the Boy Scout level. And since being active isn't a rank requirement unit Star, what defines an active Boy Scout? The handbook as well as all the other publication is vague. Can a Scout who hasn't reached the rank of Star be considered active if he only shows up once and a while when he feels like it? Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 In the first three ranks of Boy Scouting activity is achieved through the individual requirements of the ranks. Actions such as "demonstrate", "tell", "show", "while participating" all require activity on the part of the scout. No further activity level is required or warranted, it exists through the accomplishment of the rank. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted August 20, 2003 Author Share Posted August 20, 2003 Bob, True but that still doesn't require a Scout to do anymore than what's in the book! It doesn't require he participates or attends. Sure for some of the requirements the Scout must show up but that could be 3 or 4 times a year. Would this still be considered ctive? Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob White Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 "True but that still doesn't require a Scout to do anymore than what's in the book!" That is pretty much the point Ed. The Scout only has to fulfill the requirements that are in the book. The Boy Scout Handbook is the publication of the BSA and communicates to the scout the requirements for the ranks as established by the BSA. The scout only has to do the requirements that are in the book. Bob White Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGreyEagle Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Ed, if you cant add to or take away requirements, why is the issue of a scout "only doing whats in the book" such a tough pill for you to swallow? How would you like to define "active"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted August 20, 2003 Author Share Posted August 20, 2003 OGE, It's not a tought pill to swallow. It just doesn't make sense. If a Scout with a rank lower that Star isn't required to be at any meetings/outings/camping trips, etc. except those he needs as requirements or to have his book signed then how is that consistenet with the Webelos requirement? That doesn't seem like "active" to me. "Active" to me is attending Troop meetings, outings, campouts. "Active" is more than just showing up when you have to. Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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