OldGreyEagle Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 twocubdad, Where the scout unit meets isnt the issue. Merlyn has said that over and over. If a government building is open for all types of groups, there is no problem. If the building was open only for Roman Catholics, then that would be wrong. The issue is whether or not governmental units can hold a Charter for a scouting unit, not merely let the scouts use the building as it allows any other group to meet. As a Chartering Organization the governmental unit "owns and operates" the program as has been stated. The Chartering Organization Representative is charged with the selection of adult leadership, these adults leaders must exhibit qualities as required by the BSA. They must be religious heterosexuals among many other things, but the religious part is Merlyn's issue. A governmental unit, prohibited by law not to discriminate by race, creed, sex ect. could have a hard time turning down the application of a avowed Atheist. By BSA rules, the Atheist cant be a member, but by law, the governmental unit, represented by the Charter Organizaiton representative cant discriminate by creed, or abscence of one. Thats the issue. How can a govermental unit, prohibited by law to not discriminate based on religious beliefs, or lack thereof "run and operate" a group that requires religious belief as a core value. (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 twocubdad, I think OGE has summed everything up well. I don't know what issue you think we differ on; access to public facilities are and should be open to everyone, a recent case would be the lamb's chapel decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted August 19, 2003 Share Posted August 19, 2003 I was going to respond to TwoCubDad, but OGE has said basically everything I was going to say. There is a big distinction between the government allowing use of its facilities on an even-handed basis, and actually "owning" a unit by being the CO. I don't see how a military unit (which is just a subdivision of the government) can own a sub-organization that is required by its own national rules to discriminate on the basis of religion. I think that eventually, this issue will be decided against the government. Note, not "against the BSA," which is really just a bystander on this issue, though the result will be that military units cannot be CO's of Scout units. That would not necessarily deprive anyone of Scouting, by the way. The units could try to do what one troop in my town does, for other reasons. Troop 62 (not the real number) is chartered to Friends of Troop 62, Inc., which is a nonprofit corporation consisting of parents and leaders of the troop. "Friends" applies to the school district just like the Girl Scouts, rec basketball, senior citizens club and whoever else to use the school gym on certain nights -- without fee, because all of these groups fall into various fee-waiver categories. "Friends" also made arrangements with a church to park the troop trailer, store the equipment and also allow use of a meeting room at times when school is closed. Obviously the benefits of having a "real" CO are absent, but there also is a degree of independence that has a certain appeal. So, back to Camp Swampy, if the military base can't be the CO for Troop 62, why can't the parents and leaders (though gov't employees) form Friends of Troop 62? Then if the base allows meetings of the chess club, youth basketball etc., Troop 62 gets to use the meeting room on the same footing. It's not an elegant solution. It is not exactly the way Scouting is supposed to work. If the troop gets direct cash assistance from the military base (as my troop does from its CO, a church), then the troop would have to find an alternative source of these funds. But people have to find other sources of funds all the time. It could work, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 In the specific case of being on a military base, I've seen military regs that cover all private organizations allowed on that base, and private organizations, even if they can legally discriminate, aren't allowed on base. The government can do this because it can show it has a vested interest in fighting against discrimination on its own military bases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twocubdad Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Roger that, OGE Point taken. But I suppose I would respond with essentially what NJ has said. It seems like a fairly short putt for the units to be registered to a "Friends Of" organization or an independent family services group. But I'm the first to admit I know nothing about military life. Maybe some of you guys in the service can explain how this would work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purcelce Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 2Cub wrote "But I suppose I would respond with essentially what NJ has said. It seems like a fairly short putt for the units to be registered to a "Friends Of" organization or an independent family services group. But I'm the first to admit I know nothing about military life. Maybe some of you guys in the service can explain how this would work." If for some reason down the road, a military unit cannot be a CO, then this is what can happen. There are several non-profit clubs on a base. Some examples are the Officer Wive's Club, Enlisted Spouse Club, Air Force Sergeants' Association, Top 3, Chief's Group, First Sergeant's Group, Defender Association, CE Boosters... (you get the picture). These clubs help out the military and local community by providing money to military families in need, toy drives at Christmas time, providing bodies for Habitat for Humanity, and a ton of other services. These clubs would be more than happy to Charter a BSA unit, if the military unit is required to drop the Charter. However I don't see this happening. Update...I've contacted the ACLU to help me out with getting me into the Over 40 years old Basketball League. (Last line is scarcasm....need to have a laugh in these post every now and then.) :) (This message has been edited by purcelce) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Old Guy Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Do you think that the ACLU would help my son get into GSUSA? How about making me a GS leader and changing the rules so I can take the girls camping by myself. Wait, I almost forgot that heterosexual men are evil and cannot be trusted around teenaged girls. I wonder what is so different about homosexual men that makes them so trustworthy around teenaged boys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slontwovvy Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Merl, to quote myself, "I was asking you your opinion on the questions." When I referred to "you" in my original post, I was not referring to you personally, but to the American left. Put down the outrage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 FOG writes: Do you think that the ACLU would help my son get into GSUSA? If you can find a GSUSA unit "owned and operated" by a government agency, sure; otherwise, the GSUSA, being a private organization, can do what it likes. How about making me a GS leader and changing the rules so I can take the girls camping by myself. You'd have to convince them to change their leadership requirements; men can be GS leaders, but the GSUSA requires at least one female leader because she acts as a role model for the girls. to slontwovvy: I'll defend my positions, not someone else's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 "If you can find a GSUSA unit "owned and operated" by a government agency, sure; otherwise, the GSUSA, being a private organization, can do what it likes." And so is the BSA! Merlyn, Do you attack the GSUSA with as much energy as you attack the BSA? Ed Mori Scoutmaster Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 The government "owns and operates" BSA units that exclude atheists from membership; you've been told this countless times now, but it doesn't seem to sink in. The GSUSA doesn't have the government discriminating against atheists on their behalf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Ed, I don't know, it seems to me that Merlyn is treating BSA and GSUSA even-handedly. He is saying that a military unit can "own and operate" a unit of either organization as long as the organization follows the same principles of non-discrimination that the military unit (as a part of the government) is required to follow. Of course, the issue would not arise in the case of a GSUSA unit, for two reasons: 1. The GSUSA (apparently) does not exclude atheists. (I say "apparently" because this is what I have heard, and I have tried to find a clear statement confirming this on the Internet, but the statements I find are somewhat ambiguous. I think they do mean that a girl will not be excluded for being an atheist. 2. Girl Scout units apparently (there's that word again) are owned and operated by the GSUSA or sub-units within it -- not by chartering organizations as the BSA does. Girl Scout units do have "sponsors" but it is not the same kind of relationship as a CO has with the BSA unit. Therefore, a governmental unit or agency would not be in a position of owner/operator of a GSUSA unit, and the same legal issues would not arise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slontwovvy Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 Then defend your opinions, don't evade the questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 slontwovvy writes: Then defend your opinions, don't evade the questions. I WILL defend my opinions - MY opinions. As I pointed out before, you abscribed opinions to me without asking me what my opinions actually were. That's dishonest. And since this is a forum on scouting issues, debates should have some connection to scouting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted August 20, 2003 Share Posted August 20, 2003 The GSUSA doesn't admit boys as members. That's discrimination! The BSA doesn't admit girls! That's discrimination! What's the difference! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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