Charter pulled

NJCubScouter · August 18, 2003

Acco, thank you for asking that question, I'll be interested in seeing the answer myself.

evmori · August 18, 2003

I'm still waiting on an answer to my question about "In God We Trust" on our currency! Guess you don't address the ones you can't win! Sounds like selective prosecution to me!

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

NJCubScouter · August 18, 2003

Another failed attempt at editing a post.

BobWhite (welcome back) replies to Acco as follows:

Acco, you can express your views to your local council president, scout executive, or any member of the national council board in your area (you can get their names from the council office). Or, contact the Relationships division at the National Council Office in Irving, TX.

They will welcome your input.

Yeah, sure. What they probably will welcome is putting your name on a list... if not putting your name and address on a termination letter.

purcelce · August 18, 2003

Meryln wrote: "There's an ACLU lawsuit against the DoD over BSA charters now, and I'm quite sure the ACLU will win, since the government can't practice the BSA's religious discrimination."

But until the ACLU wins, (that's if they win) then military units can charter BSA units.

FOG wrote, "Is it the unit that is chartering the troop or is the squardron welfare organization or whatever you zoomies call the recreation and support organization?"

It is the actual military units that are CO's. It kind of cool to know that one of our IH's has four stars on his shoulder. Now sometimes the unit's booster clubs as we call them will give a few bucks to the units, but most of the time it's the kids, parents, and scouters that are shelling out the big bucks for recharter fees, camping equipment, etc.

Before we get into the big MWR debate, let me state some things about "Military" Booster Clubs. Booster clubs are non-profit organizations that are not a part of the military. They are a group of individuals that get together and do things for the better of the community. Some examples are: Help families in need, Provide financial support to (buying flower, plaques,)for going away parties, provide manpower for Habitat for Humanity, and things of that nature. My unit's Booster provides Turkey's at Thanksgiving for needy families in the local area.

(This message has been edited by purcelce)

Bob White · August 18, 2003

Not at all NJ. The conversation over the acceptance is a nearly constant one with the national organization. The BSA has made it very clear that the way to address this issue is through the BSA chanels and not through public demonatration which draws attention away from the purpose and accomplishments of the youth.

No leader has ever been removed or exiled for expressing an opinion or idea to the BSA in a scout-like manner.

Your fear-mongering is unwarranted.

Bob White

Merlyn_LeRoy · August 18, 2003

cary P writes

But until the ACLU wins, (that's if they win) then military units can charter BSA units.

What do you think should happen if an atheist army brat applies for membership? Should the army tell the kid that the US military is running a group that atheist kids can't join?

Do you think the US military could similarly run a youth group that excluded Jewish kids?

ed mori keep whining:

I'm still waiting on an answer to my question about "In God We Trust" on our currency!

Because, as usual, your question makes all kinds of invalid assumptions. You seemed to claim that having IGWT on currency means the government can run youth groups that exclude atheists, but the two statements have no connection. American currency has Freemason imagery on it too, does that mean the government could run youth groups only open to Freemasons and their families?

evmori · August 18, 2003

Merlyn,

Nope. Once again you got it wrong. If you go back to the post I where I originally asked the question you will understand the question. You are going to ahve to look for yourself cause I'm not restating it! And by the way, I don't whine.

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

purcelce · August 18, 2003

Merlyn wrote, "What do you think should happen if an atheist army brat applies for membership? Should the army tell the kid that the US military is running a group that atheist kids can't join?

Do you think the US military could similarly run a youth group that excluded Jewish kids? "

First off Merlyn I don't care for your tone of "Atheiest army brat". None of my post were derogatory to you or your views. So please respect my views. My children are not Air Force brats. They are wonderful kids.

Now to answer you questions. For what I know, (and I could be wrong) is that BSA does not turn away youth, only adults, that do not abide with BSA's policies on adult unit leaders. Also the military does not run BSA troops.

(This message has been edited by purcelce)

Merlyn_LeRoy · August 18, 2003

Cary P writes:

Now to answer you questions. For what I know, (and I could be wrong) is that BSA does not turn away youth, only adults, that do not agree with BSA's policies.

You're wrong. The BSA has kicked out 12-year-olds for not having the "right" religious views, such as the Randall twins, and they have testified in court that first graders who are atheists cannot join the Boy Scouts.

Also the military does not run BSA troops.

The BSA itself says the charter partner "owns and operates" the unit, not the BSA.

With this new information, what do you think should (or would) happen if an atheist son of a base soldier wants to join? Should the army practice unlawful religious discrimination and reject someone from a youth group that the army itself "owns and operates"?

evmori · August 18, 2003

It isn't unlawful! There is no law!

Bob White · August 18, 2003

But Merlyn the BSA does not turn away jewish kids. It doesn't even turn away Wicken kids or UU kids. So your point is seriously flawed. The BSA does not exclude any choice of religion, it only turns away those who have not yet to chosen to provide service to God in whatever God means to them. As an atheist you have chosen not to accept a duty to a God at this point in your life. Once you do, you will be closer to eligibility in the BSA.

Don't think of it as rejection, think of it as a postponement on your part.

Bob White

Merlyn_LeRoy · August 18, 2003

bob white writes:

But Merlyn the BSA does not turn away jewish kids. It doesn't even turn away Wicken kids or UU kids. So your point is seriously flawed.

I thought you, at least, would be able to understand what an analogy is, and what it's for.

I guess not.

The US can't discriminate against Jewish kids OR atheist kids. It would be JUST AS LEGAL for a military base to run a "no Jews" youth group as a "no atheists" youth group.

By JUST AS LEGAL, I mean not legal at all; the government can't offer its services only to people who have the "right" religious views, whether you or a majority think that Jews and/or atheists are wrong.

But your own prejudice doesn't even allow you to see discrimination against atheist kids, even when you can easily see discrimination against Jewish kids.

purcelce · August 18, 2003

Merlyn wrote "The BSA itself says the charter partner "owns and operates" the unit, not the BSA.

With this new information, what do you think should (or would) happen if an atheist son of a base soldier wants to join? Should the army practice unlawful religious discrimination and reject someone from a youth group that the army itself "owns and operates"? "

I just did a quick check on the BSA website, and I couldn't find anything that states a CO "owns and operates" a BSA unit. If you or anyone else can show me the "owns and operates" quotes, please let me know where to find it. Only thing I found was that the CO

Selects leadership. The head of the chartered organization appoints a chartered organization representative to provide leadership in the selection of a committee of adults that will provide overall supervision for the unit's program. The committee selects the adult unit leaders who will work with the youth. The chartered organization representative is also a voting member of the local council and may serve as a member of the district committee.

Providing a meeting place and promoting a good program. The chartered organization arranges for adequate meeting facilities for the unit and promotes through its committee the full use of the program, including outdoor experiences, advancement, recognitions, and, in particular, Scouting's values.

"With this new information, what do you think should (or would) happen if an atheist son of a base soldier wants to join?"

If BSA's policy is to not allow atheiest boys into BSA units , then I stand behind BSA's policy.

"Should the army practice unlawful religious discrimination and reject someone from a youth group that the army itself "owns and operates"? "

Discrimination? In my eyes yes...Unlawful? No.

Rules in the military state that I can't join the Officers club. Is the discrimanation? yes...Unlawful? no.

v/r

Cary P

purcelce · August 18, 2003