Question for Bob White

[NWScouter]

It took me awhile to find it but I finally found it in copy of Cub Scout Leader Book copyright 1982 printing 1992. On page 90 it states the Religious principles of the BSA. Midway through it, it states by inference that all faith must be allowed in a unit and therefore an officialy all Catholic or all LDS troop is not allowed. .: Where a Scouting unit is connected with a distinctly religious organization, no members of other denominations or faiths shall be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly peculiar to that organization. To me it says that units can not be officially be all one faith.

LDS units in my area have and welcome non-members of their church. Now you may find a kosher Jewish boy finding it difficult being in a troop not kosher so he may join a troop that is mostly Jewish. I know of a Scout that is Roman Catholic that didnt feel comfortable in a troop sponsored by his parish because he went to public school and most of the Scouts went to the parish School. Scouts can join any troop and they generally go to the one they feel comfortable in.

After my search for the quote above I have come to the conclusion that this Religious Principles statement has been given short shift by the current national leadership. When I went through training in the mid 80s and it was mentioned prominently now I can find it any of the current leader handbooks. I couldnt find it on the official BSA website either. There is more to quote but my fingers get tired typing.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

 

I think what this thread needs is a good song, now this should be sung to "Away in a Manger". For those not familiar with this tune, here is a link to a MIDI file of it:

 

http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/a/w/awaymang.htm

 

I learned it as the Scouting Anthem, although I have no idea how accurate that is.

 

A scout is a young man who lives by a code,To protect his honor, and take the high road,He faces temptation, but doesn't give in,The scout law gives him the foundation to win.

 

A scout is trustworthy, he's loyal, true blue,Helpful, friendly, courteous to me and to you. Kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty every cent,A scout is brave, clean, and reverent.

 

A scout is helpful to all those in need,Reward he seeks not, it is just a good deed,He's friendly to people, all races and creeds, A trait that he knows that the world sorely needs.

 

A scout is courteous, says "please" and "thank you", It's something he learned as a child to do,He is also kind, he's not spiteful or snide, It's strong to be gentle, he knows deep inside.

 

A scout is obedient of rules that are there,And works from within to change those deemed unfair,He's cheerful, he smiles, looks for the bright side,And helps dry the tears of others who've cried.

 

A scout is thrifty, of his goods he takes care,And protects the world, and the things God put there,He's brave, but not foolish, does not pick a fight,But always defends what he knows to be right.

 

A scout is clean in thought, word, and deed,Helps others to learn and to share these beliefs,He is always reverent of our God above,Reaches out to others to share His great love.

 

On my honor I will do my best,To God and my country, to face every test,To obey the Scout Law, help others always,Be strong, and be wise, and morally straight.

 

A scout is a young man who's lived and who's dared,To always help others, and to be prepared,Come join the adventure, like others who knew,A good turn done daily, the world does renew.

 

Scouting makes the future a bright thing to view!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Twocubdad]

Thanks OGE, nice touch!

[Bob White]

You have misinterpreted the passage. I invite you to print the entire text rather than a portion out of context.

 

What you have printed says that a scout in a unit that is sponsored by a religious organization cannot be forced to take part in that religion's ceremonies. It does not imply that a religion based CO cannot restrict its membership to those of their specific religion.

 

The current Cub Leader Handbook page 8-4 states "Young people of all relious backgrounds are welcomed in Scouting, some participating in units for youth of a particular faith and the greaster majority participating in units open to members of various religious backgrounds."

 

If you feel the handbook from 1992 says something contrary please print the entire passage so that we can see if it actually translates that way. I don't believe that it does.

 

Bob White

 

 

[captainron14]

I have never heard of LDS units "Restricting" membership in their units to ONLY LDS Scouts.

In fact, every unit I have been involved in/with as a Scout or Scouter has had NON-LDS Scouts as members (30+ Years). One troop's SPL was not LDS.

I can see though where a Moslem Scout would not feel comfortable in a Jewish Troop. And other similar examples.

[evmori]

WOW! The earth must have stopped spinning!

Bob,

I read that the SAME WAY you did! Isn't it nice when you agree with me!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[dsteele]

There was a case in Kalamazoo a few years ago where a Moslem became Cubmaster of a pack chartered to a Christian Church. The Church was using the Scouting program as their youth program and respectfully (as respectfully as such a thing can be done) denied him that role.

 

It hit the papers. Folks were upset and blamed the BSA for allowing such a thing to happen. My own parents jumped me on it and I said the same thing to them -- the church has that right.

 

And the BSA (local council) started a new pack with the same Moslem as Cubmaster with a charter partner who wanted youth and adults of all faiths.

 

While it sounds bad . . . in the end, more kids and more faiths were served in the neighborhood.

 

DS

[Rooster7]

What are these religious organizations doing that is causing such a ruckus?

 

They are simply (and wisely) using the Scouting program to complement their religious teachings and their youth outreach. Since it is their religion, it only makes sense that they would want someone of their own faith, to teach their children. Furthermore, since they want to ensure that their children are learning all of the right things (i.e., the same things that their faith teaches), it also makes sense that they would restrict youth membership to members of their own faith. The driving force for them - is their faith, not Scouting. Scouting is a means. In short, if they were a Christian organization, it would be silly (to put it politely) to install a Muslim for a Cubmaster. Do football teams hire hockey coaches?

 

[packsaddle]

OGE, nice song.

 

Rooster, While they may not hire hockey coaches, in most countries they do hire soccer coaches:) Couldn't resist, I just had to try one of those smiley face things. Hey, it worked!

I think I understand your meaning but one thing that troubles me is that a unit could start as mine has, with boys of many faiths and from many cultures, and then the CO could decide to 'narrow' the scope, essentially encouraging those who 'do not fit in' to leave. I would resist this...especially if there was no alternative unit.

On the other hand, if a unit starts as a monoculture and resists outsiders (which I think you are advocating) that seems not quite so bad. But again I remind you that if you take the element of religious faith out of the process, it is easy to make a comparison to a unit that is all-white and encourages other races to apply elsewhere. I have seen that too (not recently). I think that all boys need these opportunities and it is a shame if some are rejected simply because they are a minority faith.

[Rooster7]

But again I remind you that if you take the element of religious faith out of the process, it is easy to make a comparison to a unit that is all-white and encourages other races to apply elsewhere.

 

Thats like saying if you ignore the fact that a circle is a round, it could be compared to a square. No offense intended, but thats a silly statement. Most religious organizations chose to discriminate because they want their members to share the same ideas about God, not because they want to encourage hate. Are there exceptions? Of courseBut that can be said of just about any organization.

 

I think that all boys need these opportunities and it is a shame if some are rejected simply because they are a minority faith.

 

I understand your sentiment. Id like to clarify your last statement though. These boys are not being rejected because they are of a minority faith. They are being turned away because they are not of the same faith. In other words, its a matter of sharing the same ideas and values, not bigotry.

 

[Twocubdad]

Rooster, I understand what you're saying, and I'm sure you are not a racist, but substitue "race" for "faith" in the above statement and see how it sounds.

 

What you are describing is a church school program, not Scouts. Of course, if a Baptist wants only Baptist children and Baptist teachers in their Sunday School program, that is their right. But how does that jive with a "strictly nonsectarian" Scout program?

 

And I'm still hoping for an explaination of how a unit can "shift the focus of the unit to focus on the teachings and obligations of their church," as Bob wrote. As it has been explained here many times, Scouting is a national program and the focus should be on delivering the program as promised in the handbooks.

 

NWScouter -- the passage you quote, Where a Scouting unit is connected with a distinctly religious organization, no members of other denominations or faiths shall be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly peculiar to that organization. is repeated in the current(2001)printing of the Cub Scout Leader Book as well.

 

It also says:

 

"The BSA recognizes the religious elements in the training of a member, it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that training." (emphasis on absolutely nonsectarian)

 

"The BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God...."

 

"The BSA does not require membership in a religious organization...."

 

"The BSA respects the convictions of those ... without formal membership in religious organizations."

 

And finally, the section concludes with a highlight line that says "Only people willing to subscribe to these declarations of principles shall be entitled to certificates of leadership in carrying out the Scouting program."

 

But what you guys are saying is that the above is the policy of the Boy Scouts of America -- except for those units who choose not to follow it?(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[packsaddle]

TwoCubDad, I think what you're saying also goes to the spirit of scouting as well as interpretation of policy.

Rooster, our viewpoints are different on this and the distinction is important. Where your viewpoint is that of the entity handing out the rejection (the organization), mine is from the perspective of the person being rejected (the boy). Neither that boy's regard for scouting (I would expect it to be lower) nor his feeling of personal rejection is likely to be assuaged by knowledge of the fine point you just proposed to minimize it. And it is so unnecessary.

 

You might be interested to know that a few years ago, a local Methodist cub scout pack had a Unitarian Universalist cubmaster...and was glad to have him. He graduated to their troop when his son was old enough. No problems at all.

[Rooster7]

Rooster, I understand what you're saying, and I'm sure you are not a racist, but substitute "race" for "faith" in the above statement and see how it sounds.

 

You cant substitute words. Words have meaning. Race is a physical trait which one inherits. Religion is ones personal belief about who God is, and how we should relate to Him and others. In terms of meaning, these two words have nothing to do with one another.

 

What you are describing is a church school program, not Scouts. Of course, if a Baptist wants only Baptist children and Baptist teachers in their Sunday School program, that is their right. But how does that jive with a "strictly nonsectarian" Scout program?

 

The BSA as a whole is nonsectarian, but the BSA does give organizations the option to make their troops sectarian. This enables the organization to emphasize parts of the program to fit their needs.

 

And I'm still hoping for an explanation of how a unit can "shift the focus of the unit to focus on the teachings and obligations of their church," as Bob wrote. As it has been explained here many times, Scouting is a national program and the focus should be on delivering the program as promised in the handbooks.

 

Delivering the program as promised - and focusing on ones religious teachings and obligations, do not have to be mutually exclusive goals. They can complement one another.

 

NWScouter -- the passage you quote, Where a Scouting unit is connected with a distinctly religious organization, no members of other denominations or faiths shall be required, because of their membership in the unit, to take part in or observe a religious ceremony distinctly peculiar to that organization. is repeated in the current (2001)printing of the Cub Scout Leader Book as well.

 

This BSA directive references a Scouting unit, chartered by a religious organization, whereas its members have different faiths. It does not address the Scouting unit, chartered by a religious organization, whereas all its members have the same faith.

 

It also says:

 

"The BSA recognizes the religious elements in the training of a member, it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that training." (emphasis on absolutely nonsectarian)

 

"The BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God...."

 

"The BSA does not require membership in a religious organization...."

 

"The BSA respects the convictions of those ... without formal membership in religious organizations."

 

Again, the above applies to the BSA as a whole. They, in fact, have members of all different faiths. They, in fact, do not introduce religious aspects into their training or force members to participate in religious ceremonies, etc. However, again, the BSA issues charters to religious organizations with the understanding that they (the religious organization) may use the Scouting program to serve their members only and that they may impose restrictions on their members that the BSA may not as a whole (for example, no camping trips on Sunday).

 

But what you guys are saying is that the above is the policy of the Boy Scouts of America -- except for those units who choose not to follow it?

 

No. Were saying that the BSA gives chartering organizations the right to serve the segment of the population that they represent (schools, churches, military bases, etc.). When an organization adopts Scouting as part of its youth and community outreach program, a committee is formed and leadership is selected to organize and operate the troop in conjunction with the organization's special needs and desires. In short, you have it backwards

 

Scouting does not use the chartering organization to achieve its goals. Scouting is a means for the chartering organization to achieve its goals (so long as those needs, desires, and goals are consistent with the Scout Oath and Law). Consequently, the BSA needs to be sure that they issue charters to worthy organizations.

 

[mk9750]

Hey, HEy, HEY! Keep it down about COs being able to limit membership to their own group! Our IH has complained loudly for three or four years that only 35% of our Troop are members of our Parish. If he knew he could limit our membership to only Parishoners, we'd get almost no one to cross over, as we have been horrendously unsuccesful recruiting boys from within the Parish Cub Program.

 

We have tried and tried to help them, but the Parish School kids just will not leave Scouts in their school alone without picking on them unmercifully. In my 8 years with this Troop, 3 kids who went to the Parish School crossed over, and only one has stayed more than a year. The only way we get kids who belong to the Parish in our Troop is if the public school kids who belong to other Packs happen to be in our Parish.

 

Tthe problem is that our program needs a certain amount of inertia in the form of new Scouts or we will die quickly. The "see one, do one, teach one" method we use only works if there are people who still need to see one, and therefore people who need to be taught.

 

Mark

[packsaddle]

Wow, Mark that is a really dire situation. Going off topic briefly, we recently experienced something like it as well (but for different reasons, related to the DE) and I wholeheartedly agree with your statement on the need for critical mass. There's a troop size that once attained just seems to spiral down. That is, unless you get that infusion of new bodies, which, luckily, we did. I hope you do too.