Question for Bob White

[NJCubScouter]

Well, dsteele, obviously that is not the answer I was expecting. I apologize for my assumption.

 

But it does raise another issue, that of fairness and, I guess, "quality control." What if a local church decides it is going to have its own religious award and the requirements are "Attend church 5 times in a year." Unless I am mistaken, the requirements for the "recognized" relgious awards are all much, much more rigorous than that. I never earned one, nor has my son, but parents of boys who have earned them have described the work the boys had to put into them. They are real achievements requiring a lot of effort. I have to assume that if a church gave the BSA its emblem program for review and the requirements were as deficient as my ridiculous hypothetical has described, the BSA would not approve the award for uniform wear and would tell the organization to improve the requirements if it wants approval. And yet can it be the case that an award with so few requirements counts just like "God and Family" or the "Aleph" award toward the Wolf and Bear requirements?

 

(Just to check THIS assumption a bit, I found an online source for requirements for the Bear/Webelos religious award of my faith, the Aleph award. Check this out:

 

http://laurence_18.tripod.com/jewishscouts/id8.html

 

Those are some pretty impressive requirements. And although I am not aware of any Boy Scout requirement that can be fulfilled by earning a religious award, here are the requirements for the Jewish award at that level:

 

http://laurence_18.tripod.com/jewishscouts/id9.html

 

You'd probably place into the second or third year at a rabbinical seminary after all that. )

 

Anyhoo, I still do have to question the statements of BobWhite and dsteele that draw a parallel between the religious awards and such things as a Little League award, President's Physical Fitness, American Legion etc. Unless I am mistaken, none of those awards are pictured in any Boy Scout youth handbook. Religious awards (not necessarily every one available, but as a group) are listed and pictured in EVERY BSA youth handbook. So it seems to be that there is a bit more of an affiliation there.

[NJCubScouter]

Bob, if the UU award did not "count" toward the the requirement (which it does, according to dsteele), what you're basically saying is that as long as there is an option, it's ok. I don't think so. You would be saying to boys that if you're this religion you get to choose, but if you're that religion you don't. You don't see a problem with that? How is that "non-sectarian"?

[Bob White]

I simply agreed with you that it is an option. The requirement places no more emphasis on one option than on the other. If you look at the over all numbers of cubs who completed their rank you will see that the vast majority opt not to earn the religious awrd irregardless of their chosen faith. This is a non-issue.

 

Bob White

[Twocubdad]

All due respect to Bob and Dave, but I don't buy the argument that UU Scouts should equate their religious emblem with a Little League or American Legion award. Scouts of other faiths certainly hold their religious emblems in high esteem, and I don't see why a UU Scout should be any different.

 

While I imagine the folks at P.R.A.Y could clear things up with some statics, I'll bet my shorts that the vast majority of boys who earn the awards do it as part of the Scout program. I doubt seriously that many non-Scouts apply for the medal.

 

Anecdotally, I know that's the case here. Our CO (a Presbyterian church) has equated completing its year-long confirmation class with earning the God and Country. Of all the kids who complete the confirmation class only the Scouts put in for the medal. The reverse of that is true, too. All the Scout who complete the confirmation class apply for the award. No Scout earns the award then sticks on the shelf with the baseball trophies. They all proudly wear the awards on their Scout uniforms.

 

Given that, I don't understand why you would think a UU Scout would have any less pride or interest in his award.

 

I suppoose what bothers me about this is that BSA has pierced the veil of the UU's theology, if I may coin a really pompous-sounding phrase. If a tenent of the UU faith is tolerance for sexual orientation, who is BSA to deny them that belief? BSA doesn't judge the religious content of other faiths. If they did, I'm sure there are elements of other faith which would be more offensive that the UUs position. God only knows what the Zorathrustrians believe -- and then again maybe He doesn't.

 

Now I'm fully aware that the UUs tried to use the religious emblem as an opportunity to gig BSA on it's gay membership policy. They are not without blame in the matter. But the BSA has an obligation to follow it's own Statement on Religious Principles, which at its essence makes specific religious belief off limits to Scouting.

 

Someone (and I'm sorry I don't know who to credit) earlier said they held BSA to a higher standard. I feel the same way. The high ground for BSA should have been to say the UU, "You want to use your religious program to make a political point? Fine, that's your business and we respect your right to administer your religious program as you see fit."

 

Membership policy is different. BSA is fully within its right to tell UU congregations that they can't be COs if they won't adhere to BSAs policies. No argument here on that point. But membership policy and the religious emblem program should be two separate issues. I'm bothered by the fact that they have become entangled.

 

(Note to Bob: Half of everything debated on this board is a non-issue. That's never stopped us before.)(This message has been edited by Twocubdad)

[Bob White]

The same rights that allow the Unitarian Church to determine its own membership policies and religious awards requirements allows the BSA to control its membership, its uniforming and every aspect of its program that the BSA chooses to excercise control over.

 

Bob White

 

 

[dsteele]

NJcubscouter --

 

The degree of difficulty varies greatly by church and denomination. I had a Hindu Scout in my troop and he worked toward his award. By my judgement, there wasn't much difficulty to the award at all, but it was his religion's award. Created and administered by the religious leaders and recognized by the BSA.

 

I meant the comparison with the presidential physical fitness award only from the point of view that both are important awards, but simply not allowed on the Boy Scout uniform. Wiccans have their own type of scouting and I applaud their program from what I've seen, but that doesn't mean we should allow their awards on a BSA uniform.

 

And yes, if you have a Cub Scout who is a Wiccan and he earns that religion's award, I think it should count toward the requirement.

 

DS

[evmori]

I gotta agree with twocubdad on this. I a Scout earns his UU religious award, he has every right to where it on his uniform. The BSA has no right getting involved in the UU doctrine. They don't get involved in any other religions doctrine!

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

"The BSA has no right getting involved in the UU doctrine. They don't get involved in any other religions doctrine!"

 

The BSA does have a right to exclude any organization from sponsoring scouting if they refuse to follow the BSA membership standards, and they have the right to determine what values are reflected by the contents and images of the BSA uniforms.

 

The BSA did not tell the UU what thier religious doctrine should be. They told them how their changes would effect their awards eligibility to be displayed on the BSA uniform and how it would require the BSA to bar a Unitarian Church from being a BSA charter organiation.

 

I am contunually concerned by the haste of many board participants to make judgements against the BSA based on rumor, misinformation, and fabrication of information.

 

Bob White

[packsaddle]

Well folks, the students are back and I'm weathering a withering attack of virus-laden emails through our network. So I'll make this brief.

 

Twocubdad, I was the one who made the 'higher standard' statement. Thanks. But I should add, I expect that of everyone, including my scouts, my virus-propagating students, and the UUs, unless they have demonstrated unwillingness to accept the challenge.

 

Dsteele, you might be interested to know I earned my God and Country in the Presbyterian Church. It was hard but my minister taught me well. Confirmation is something that must not have been practiced by my church, at any rate I don't remember anything like it. I was the first boy to request to do the God and Country and, to my knowledge, the only one ever for that church.

 

It is my understanding that the degree of difficulty for the religious award is also dependent on age group. Cubs may not be held to as rigorous requirements as Boy Scouts or older children. I am not sure this applies to all the faiths but I seem to remember it did apply to a few I examined through the PRAY organization.

 

I had tried not to muddle the issue by raising the additional issue of interfering with religious doctrine although I agree with Ed that BSA ought not poke its nose into such (sorry Ed if I just mangled your message). I am still struggling to understand the UU faith anyway so I'll let others tackle that aspect of this conflict.

[NJCubScouter]

Packsaddle says:

 

It is my understanding that the degree of difficulty for the religious award is also dependent on age group. Cubs may not be held to as rigorous requirements as Boy Scouts or older children.

 

Actually, in looking around the Internet a bit, many of the religions have different awards depending on age group. "God and Country" is actually four different awards with eligibility determined by grade level (1-3, 4-5, 6-8 and 9-12, which follows the major divisions of the Scouting program except that a brand new Boy Scout who has not finished fifth grade would still go for the same award as a Webelos Scout.

See

http://www.praypub.org/main_frameset.htm

 

In other parts of that same web site we see that Roman Catholicism has 4 different awards, explicitly divded according to level in Scouting (1 for Tiger-Wolf, 1 for Bear-Webelos, 1 for Boy Scouts not yet in 9th grade and 1 for Boy Scouts and Venturers 9th grade and above.) (Plus 1 more for Eastern rite Boy Scouts.) Judaism also has four awards, with Bears in the youngest group. Interestingly, the PRAY site indicates that some religions have different awards, with different requirements and groupings, for Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts and Campfire Boys/Girls.

[evmori]

Bob,

Before you stated about the Episcopal church:

 

"I do not see how their rules for eligibility as a Bishop alters their ability to support the rules of scouting.

 

"Then you stated regarding the UU's:

"The BSA does have a right to exclude any organization from sponsoring scouting if they refuse to follow the BSA membership standards, and they have the right to determine what values are reflected by the contents and images of the BSA uniforms."

 

Seems a little contradictory to me.

 

Ed Mori

Scoutmaster

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Why Ed?

 

The BSA is not telling the UU who can be members of their church. The BSA is telling them who they can allow as members of the BSA.

 

The BSA is not making conditions to control the church, only setting the conditions for the BSA's own organization which the chuch had signed an agreement to follow (and then the church changed their minds).

 

The same with the religious award. The BSA is only saying that the requirements do not allow for the award to be worn on the BSA uniform not that the Unitarian church cannot have a religious award or what it must include.

 

Bob White

 

[OldGreyEagle]

I dont see the Episcopal church having a gay bishop as a problem with Episcopal churches chartering BSA units. Now, if the gay bishop wants to become a registered leader, I guess that would make things very interesting.

 

I see this the same way as a VFW Post who has an Atheist Post Commander, as long as the BSA rules are followed there is no problem. As soon as a Venture Advisor (see other thread) decides to amend the rules as they pertain to her crew then there is a problem.

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

So Ed, what are YOU saying about the issue of gay clergy and the BSA? Do you think a religion should be barred from being a CO if it permits gay clergy?

 

The BSA's answer to that last question, so far anyway, has been: No. I think Bob's point, if I put it in my own words, is that if the answer is no, then promoting a clergyman from priest to bishop wouldn't make a difference. Now, you may think that a religion that permits gay clergy at any level is not suitable to be a BSA CO, but the BSA would not agree with you.

 

On the other hand, if you think that the BSA is being "contradictory" by banning gay leaders but allowing religions with gay clergy to be CO's, I wouldn't disagree with that. I would probably phrase it as "sending a mixed message" rather than "contradictory." Of course, there are two ways that I can think of to resolve such a mixed message. One way, perhaps the way you would choose, would send the BSA further down a path that I do not think it should be travelling in the first place. I would choose the other way. And it would fit right into the idea of local option. An Episcopal Church or Reform Jewish synagogue might have an openly gay pastor or rabbi, and probably would have a policy of non-discrimination against gay leaders. A Catholic or LDS or Baptist church, or an Orthodox Jewish synagogue, would not have an openly gay pastor or rabbi, and almost certainly would not have a policy of non-discrimination against gay leaders. Sounds like a plan to me. It certainly would resolve this particular "mixed message."

[evmori]

Isn't the recent vote by the Episcopal church to allow gays in direct contradiction to the BSA policy regarding gays?

 

Ed